Mass Gun Law States...
That you can only sell 4 guns per calendar year....Never heard of anyone getting busted for it though..
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Your question is?
I've never heard that particular MA gun law.
What I have heard from a few of the diehard MA gun nuts is a different rule: "Never sell a gun in MA".
Its because of the (well justified) fear that a total ban or further restriction is just one nutty legislature away.0 -
Have you heard of this...or seen it enforced...Are you from Ma 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ra5451
That you can only sell 4 guns per calendar year....Never heard of anyone getting busted for it though..
CA law does the same, I think the limit is 5 per year. I've never heard of anyone being arrested, charged, fined, etc for a violation. Safe to say I'm aquainted with many folks who have sold greater than 5 guns per year.
But if the law exists in MA, in making a determination, step one is to define exactly what constitutes a sale. If I do a "private party transfer" in CA, is that considered a sale? Consignment = sale? If I sell 10 guns to an FFL in one transaction is that one sale or ten sales? People sell collections all the time, I don't think in doing so they are breaking the law.
I think the intent of the law is to ensure unlicensed individuals do not engage in the business of selling firearms.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
But if the law exists in MA, in making a determination, step one is to define exactly what constitutes a sale. If I do a "private party transfer" in CA, is that considered a sale? Consignment = sale? If I sell 10 guns to an FFL in one transaction is that one sale or ten sales? People sell collections all the time, I don't think in doing so they are breaking the law. I think the intent of the law is to ensure unlicensed individuals do not engage in the business of selling firearms.
It would be a mistake to assume that gun law in the State of MA reflects the legitimate interest of the State. My interpretation is that MA State gun law is designed specifically to make it as hard as possible for the average person to legally acquire guns, to restrict the choice of said guns as much as possible, and also to facilitate the State's tracking and identification of weapons in the State as much as possible.
There are a number of aspects of State gun policy that are probably outright illegal (eg the State Attorney General's office having its own de-facto "law" about which guns can and can't be sold in the State).
Also, to be clear here, there is no such thing as a legal undocumented private person to person sale of guns in MA the way there is in many other states.
EVERY person to person sale (and I've been personally involved in a few) involves mandatory State paperwork. . .meaning EVERY gun sold in MA that's sold legally can be traced via State records. Yup, in MA, they're all registered.
Now again, I've never heard of this "you can't sell more than four guns per year" rule in MA. I don't see how/why the State would even care given that gun sales can ONLY legally occur between licensed individuals and the State is already tracking every single gun sale. I also know of multiple cases of people selling off gun collections greater than four guns at all once via dealers. Hell, I own guns that were sold that way.
It *might* be true that you can't do more than four person-to-person sales per year *without going through a licensed dealer*. That's a bit of a different thing, though.
Also, I know of at least one individual (who happens to be a professional certified gun instructor of impeccable character) who has sold off more than four guns in a year, every single time going through the formal State paperwork process. So the State of MA "should" know about this, though so far as I know, he's never been called on it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
But if the law exists in MA, in making a determination, step one is to define exactly what constitutes a sale. If I do a "private party transfer" in CA, is that considered a sale? Consignment = sale? If I sell 10 guns to an FFL in one transaction is that one sale or ten sales? People sell collections all the time, I don't think in doing so they are breaking the law. I think the intent of the law is to ensure unlicensed individuals do not engage in the business of selling firearms.
It would be a mistake to assume that gun law in the State of MA reflects the legitimate interest of the State. My interpretation is that MA State gun law is designed specifically to make it as hard as possible for the average person to legally acquire guns, to restrict the choice of said guns as much as possible, and also to facilitate the State's tracking and identification of weapons in the State as much as possible.
There are a number of aspects of State gun policy that are probably outright illegal (eg the State Attorney General's office having its own de-facto "law" about which guns can and can't be sold in the State).
Also, to be clear here, there is no such thing as a legal undocumented private person to person sale of guns in MA the way there is in many other states.
EVERY person to person sale (and I've been personally involved in a few) involves mandatory State paperwork. . .meaning EVERY gun sold in MA that's sold legally can be traced via State records. Yup, in MA, they're all registered.
Now again, I've never heard of this "you can't sell more than four guns per year" rule in MA. I don't see how/why the State would even care given that gun sales can ONLY legally occur between licensed individuals and the State is already tracking every single gun sale. I also know of multiple cases of people selling off gun collections greater than four guns at all once via dealers. Hell, I own guns that were sold that way.
It *might* be true that you can't do more than four person-to-person sales per year *without going through a licensed dealer*. That's a bit of a different thing, though.
Also, I know of at least one individual (who happens to be a professional certified gun instructor of impeccable character) who has sold off more than four guns in a year, every single time going through the formal State paperwork process. So the State of MA "should" know about this, though so far as I know, he's never been called on it.
I agree with pretty much all the above. I'm fairly well aquainted with MA gun laws (grew up in Plaistow, NH and my family lives in Andover & Haverhill - I'm visiting next week, Mom has tasked me with helping her buy a pistol, she has her LTC) and what you've written almost word for word applies to California. CA does not allow private sales of modern guns - we must go through an FFL even when doing what's called a "private party transfer". Also, CA has a "safe gun" list that keeps out alot of handguns. The state is fairly hi tech, but there's a 10 day waiting period to buy a gun - regardless of how many you already own.
Again, I don't know if MA has the same law but given the Commonwealth's track record on gun control I wouldn't be surprised.
I know MA legislators miss no opportunity to stick it to MA gun owners, same as CA. But they're not perfect in their efforts. For example, CA has an assault weapons ban - but the law as written contains language that has allowed CA gun owners to bring in some 300,000 AR15s, AKs, etc over the last few years. CA has a hi cap mag ban - on building, selling, importing, etc. But not on possession. Doesn't take much imagination to figure out what happens - people tend to "discover" all sorts of hi cap mags that have evidently been lying about the house for years.
States with complicated and poorly written gun laws (like MA & CA)inspire creative methods of (legally) working around them & require a critical reading of the law. Again, it would not surpise me if there is a MA law on sales limits, but I do not know. If there is such a law, I think one must read the specific law & definition of what constitutes a sale. The common sense approach you and I would take regarding what constitutes a sale may not be the same as the state's definition.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
I agree with pretty much all the above. I'm fairly well aquainted with MA gun laws (grew up in Plaistow, NH and my family lives in Andover & Haverhill - I'm visiting next week, Mom has tasked me with helping her buy a pistol, she has her LTC) and what you've written almost word for word applies to California.
CA does not allow private sales of modern guns - we must go through an FFL even when doing what's called a "private party transfer". Also, CA has a "safe gun" list that keeps out alot of handguns. The state is fairly hi tech, but there's a 10 day waiting period to buy a gun - regardless of how many you already own.
Let me help you here.
-If you have an LTC, there is no "waiting period" to buy a handgun in MA. You have to go through the NICS check, etc, but you can walk out of the store with the gun after you buy it.
The State figures (rationally, I think) that if you've already been fingerprinted, taken the course, background checked, and waited the three months to GET your LTC, then there is no point in making you wait ANOTHER 1-2 weeks to pick up your gun. They know who you are, and your sale will be logged into State records. I mean once you've only got two hands and once you've got one gun, having one or ten more doesn't really make you any more dangerous.
Once you HAVE the LTC, you can buy as many guns as you want.
-Person to person sales actually ARE legal in MA. . .*BUT* the guns have to be sold between individuals with LTCs, and as a matter of State law, you are require to document the sale with a particular form (I forget the name of it) sent to the State. Undocumented sales (even between individuals with LTCs) are not legal. Obviously, there can be no prospective enforcement here.
-"Four Seasons" in Woburn is one of the best (if not THE best) gun stores in the State of MA. If you want to get some sense of the nonsensical state of MA gun law, just check out the website.
-FWIW, *ALL* production Smith and Wesson guns are MA-compliant. Allegedly Smith (which is an MA-based company) struck a deal with the State AG to keep it that way. Curiously, competitor Kahr Arms' guns (which are made virtually next door to Smith's) are NOT MA-compliant. Go figure.
So for your mom, it should be no problem finding her a nice Smith revolver (which is probably one of the better choices for an older woman with little gun experience).0 -
ra5451, I believe that what you heard is a misinterpretation of an obtuse MA law.
That law (MA Gen Law, Chap 269, Sect 10E) prohibits the transfer of three or more firearms within a 12 calendar month period, except as provided by law. Punishment is draconian, even more so if the number exceeds 20 or 30 firearms. I'm guessing that their logic is, illegal sale of 1 gun is bad, but illegally selling a quantity of guns is even worse.
For you, this is meaningless. Every gun you ever transfer will undoubtedly be done according to MA law.
Neal0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
I agree with pretty much all the above. I'm fairly well aquainted with MA gun laws (grew up in Plaistow, NH and my family lives in Andover & Haverhill - I'm visiting next week, Mom has tasked me with helping her buy a pistol, she has her LTC) and what you've written almost word for word applies to California.
CA does not allow private sales of modern guns - we must go through an FFL even when doing what's called a "private party transfer". Also, CA has a "safe gun" list that keeps out alot of handguns. The state is fairly hi tech, but there's a 10 day waiting period to buy a gun - regardless of how many you already own.
Let me help you here.
-If you have an LTC, there is no "waiting period" to buy a handgun in MA. You have to go through the NICS check, etc, but you can walk out of the store with the gun after you buy it.
The State figures (rationally, I think) that if you've already been fingerprinted, taken the course, background checked, and waited the three months to GET your LTC, then there is no point in making you wait ANOTHER 1-2 weeks to pick up your gun. They know who you are, and your sale will be logged into State records. I mean once you've only got two hands and once you've got one gun, having one or ten more doesn't really make you any more dangerous.
So for your mom, it should be no problem finding her a nice Smith revolver (which is probably one of the better choices for an older woman with little gun experience).
Many thanks - I'm leaning toward some form of small framed Smith.
In CA, all that's required to purchase a handgun is ID & something called an HSC card. No background when it's issued, hence the check when you buy a handgun. I'd equate it to the old FID card. I think the reason CA uses this method is because they can charge a $35.00 fee every time a gun is purchased - I just bought a darn stripped 1911 frame for $90.00. With tax & background the total was almost $140.00 - and I'm supposed to buy a damn lock, and wait 10 days. For a stripped frame.
I got my 1st LTC about 35 years ago & I was 18 at the time - also one of the first times I ran into someone rabidly opposed to concealed guns, local cop who told me "if I had my way you wouldn't even be able to apply" as he handed me the paperwork. Until that point I thought cops were pretty much all progun - fortunately he wasn't the Chief and I got the LTC "for all lawful purposes" which back then meant self defense as opposed to target shooting.
Regarding Mom, I visted last year, she told me our next door neighbor's husband passed away and the old widow wanted to sell his gun - so Mom bought it for $250.00. A 4" Python circa 1970 production. She still doesn't believe me when I tell her how much the darn things cost.0 -
What is happening is the state is trying to backdoor the defination of a dealer. (There are similar laws in some state involving automobiles.) ie, if you sell more than the designated number in a callendar year you are considered a dealer and you have to get a license. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ra5451
That you can only sell 4 guns per calendar year....Never heard of anyone getting busted for it though..
Gun Owners' Action League
The Official Firearms Association of Massachusetts
"Protecting Your Freedom Begins Here"
P.O. Box 567 Northboro, MA ph: 508-393-5333 fax:508-393-5222
"The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self defense in the home."
- U.S. Supreme Court Justice J. Scalia
Common Questions Regarding Handgun Sales in Massachusetts
Buying a Handgun in Massachusetts
Are you confused about the process of buying handguns in Massachusetts? You are not alone.
GOAL has created this overview to help you better understand what is needed to buy a handgun in Massachusetts. These descriptions do not describe the process for people who are not residents of Massachusetts, or to curios and relics dealers, or licensed dealers. These descriptions we've created for residents citizens should not be considered legal advice.
Who Can Buy a Handgun Lawfully?
In order to purchase a handgun, you must have a license to carry a firearm. You must be a US Citizen over 21 years of age in order to get the license, and must not have certain kinds of convictions on your record.
There are other types of gun licenses available for non-residents and non-citizens. For more information, call the Firearms Records Bureau at 617-660-4780.
Where Do You Buy Handguns?
Once you have a License To Carry A Firearm, you may lawfully buy handguns from two sources:
A state and federally licensed firearms dealer, or
Another individual in Massachusetts, who has the appropriate license to possess the handgun that is for sale.
If you want to buy a handgun that is offered for sale in another state, it must be transferred from a licensed dealer in that state to a licensed dealer in this state, who can then transfer it to you.
What Happens When You Buy From a Dealer ?
In order to be in business in the Commonwealth, a firearms dealer has both a state dealer's license and a federal dealer's license (usually called an FFL). These licenses place certain requirements and restrictions on the sale.
The dealer will need to fill out a long yellow form for the federal government, Form 4473. This form will ask you questions about your race, national origin, convictions (if any), date of birth, and more. Using the information on this form, the dealer calls the National Instant Check System (NICS), which will see if you are disqualified by law from purchasing a firearm. In many cases, the dealer is told to "proceed" very quickly. If you have a conviction on your record, or if your name is similar to someone who has a criminal background, or if your identity has been stolen, the sale may be put on hold. The NICS will respond as soon as possible, and the hold could be removed in a matter of hours. The federal government has 3 business days to respond, by law.
Once the okay has been received from the federal government, the dealer will finish filling out the specific information on the gun you wish to purchase.
This same information about the gun, and about you as the buyer, is put on a state form FA-10. When the transactions are complete, you are given a copy of the FA-10 to keep. You are not given a copy of the federal form.
Private Sales and Transfers
Massachusetts law allows private citizens who have the right kind of firearms license to possess the items to transfer guns between themselves, provided the state is notified of the sale within 7 days. The amount you pay for the gun is not the state's business.
Just as with the dealer sale, the form FA-10 is used. Information on the buyer, the seller, and the handgun is filled in on this three-part carbonless form. The buyer and the seller each keep a copy, one copy is mailed to the state.
Copies of the FA-10's are available at many police stations, and through the Firearms Records Bureau at 617-660-4780.
An individual may sell no more than four guns to private individuals in a calendar year. There is no limit to the number of guns that an individual may buy or sell from a dealer.
What About Buying Rifles and Shotguns Out of State?
Federal law allows persons to buy rifles and shotguns from a federally licensed dealer in another state, provided all requirements of the buyer's and seller's home state are met. Thus, a Massachusetts resident with a Card or License could lawfully purchase rifles and shotguns from gun stores in other states.
However, state law requires that you register that purchase within 7 days of your return to Massachusetts. You would use an FA-10 form, and check off the box on "registration."
Copies of the FA-10's are available at many police stations, and through the Firearms Records Bureau at 617-660-4780.
What is a Large Capacity Handgun and Why is that Important to Me?
Massachusetts issues both Class A and Class B licenses to carry a firearm. A Class B License to Carry a Firearm will allow you to purchase or possess many handguns, but not large capacity handguns. A Class A license will allow you to purchase or possess handguns, regardless of whether they are considered large capacity. So the type of license you have affects what kind of guns you can buy.
Here's a simple description of large capacity handguns. A handgun is considered large capacity if:
It is in the presence of a large capacity magazine (one that holds more than ten rounds); or
if it is on the Large Capacity Weapons Roster.
For a more complete description of the term, see 501 CMR 7.00.
It should be noted that Chapter 140, section 131 _ of the General Laws requires the Secretary of Public Safety to publish the law three times annually in newspapers of general circulation. In 2002, the Executive Office of Public Safety stated it no longer had the money to do such notices, and has instead resorted to publishing it on the internet.
Copies of the large capacity roster are also supposed to be sent to all state licensed dealers. Also, your local licensing authority is supposed to furnish a copy of the roster to all new and renewal applicants for a license to carry a firearm or firearms identification card.
Why Can't I Buy Certain Handguns that I've Seen in Catalogs?
Massachusetts licensed dealers are limited as to what guns which they can sell to you. The dealer can only sell you handguns that comply with two standards - the law (see Chapter 140, section 123 of the Massachusetts General Law), and the regulations of the Attorney General (940 CMR 16.00).
More About the Standards in the Law
Chapter 140, section 123, of the Massachusetts General Laws states that a dealer may only sell guns that can pass a drop test, are not prone to repeat firing, and which meet a certain materials standard.
In order to make this requirement understandable, the state approved "independent testing laboratories" and a testing procedure. Manufacturers of handguns may now choose to pay these labs to perform the tests mentioned in the law.
The labs sent their certified results to the Gun Control Advisory Board, which reviews the results to ensure the tests were performed properly and that the guns passed the tests. They then vote on whether to recommend that the gun be on the Approved Firearms Roster. The Executive Office of Public Safety then acts on these recommendations and publishes a new roster. These regulations are found in 501 CMR 7.00.
Some smaller manufacturers can not afford to pay for the testing. Still other manufacturers object to the whole concept of the testing, and have no wish to comply. And manufacturers of top of the line competition models costing $1500 and up have no desire to pay someone to drop three of their firearms onto a concrete surface. Therefore, before the testing laboratories were even approved by the state, it was clear several product lines would not be available through Massachusetts licensed dealers.
The Bottom Line on the Standards of the Law
In order for a dealer to sell a handgun in Massachusetts a gun must be on the Approved Weapons Roster. There is only one exemption, established by section 79 of Chapter 180 of the Acts of 1998:
"SECTION 79. Clause Eighteenth to Twenty-first, inclusive, of said section 123 of said chapter 140, inserted by section 19 of this act, shall not apply to any firearm lawfully owned or possessed under a license issued under said chapter 140 on the effective date of this act."
More About the Standards of the Attorney General
The second standard a gun must pass is one put forth by the Attorney General as a supposed consumer protection measure. See GOAL's Regulatory Fraud report for more information on the history of these regulations.
The Attorney General has gone on record (see Enforcement notice #3, issued February 2002) as stating that guns that are on the Approved Weapons Roster comply with portions of the regulations.
However, in addition, the Attorney General requires that:
Guns sold by dealers must have mechanisms that preclude an average five year old from operating the handgun, such as requiring multiple motions or a ten pound trigger pull;
Guns must have either a load indicator or magazine safety disconnect.
Generally speaking, manufacturers provide notice to the Attorney General that they believe their guns meet his standards. If the AG does not object, the manufacturer will release the firearms for sale in Massachusetts.
Exemptions: Even if a manufacturer has not certified that their guns are available to the Attorney General, they could be sold under certain limited conditions. That is, the Attorney General's regulations will not prohibit the sale of:
guns manufactured prior to October 21, 1998;
guns sold to law enforcement or military;
guns solely designed and sold specifically for target shooting competition;
museums or educational collectors; and
antique firearms.
These regulations have caused a fair amount of confusion. First, because the Attorney General has refused to compile a list of firearms which meet the standards. Secondly, because that office's standard response to questions is "you'll have to ask your lawyer."
Between the two standards, the number of guns available to Massachusetts's citizens has been greatly diminished.
Can I Bypass the Regulations and Standards in the Law by Buying a Handguns From a Dealer in Another State?
By federal law, a dealer from another state may not sell you a handgun directly, he must ship the handgun to a dealer in your state, where the transfer takes place. This means the gun must still comply with the Attorney General's standards, and the standards in the law.
Do These Standards Apply to Private Sales?
No, the standards of the law and of the Attorney General, apply only to retail sales by dealers, not to private sales between individuals.
Are Private Citizens Forbidden to Own Guns if They are NOT on the Approved Weapons Roster?
No, the list is a list of firearms that can be sold at retail by licensed dealers. Neither standard - the law or the Attorney General - limits directly the type of guns a citizen may own.
Why Hasn't This Been Brought to Court?
It has. The Attorney General first proposed these regulations in 1996. At that time, a group representing the industry, the American Shooting Sports Coalition, sought and received an injunction against the regulations, so that they were not allowed to take effect until the court case had been heard. Although the manufacturers won at the lower level courts, they lost at the higher level due to a failure to appeal a certain decision. This was compounded by the fact that the ASSC was dissolving at the time. Their attorney failed to notify other groups, such as GOAL, NRA, or NSSF of the pending appeal, or we most certainly would have picked up on the appeal. Because of this court action, many of the avenues we would have chosen have been closed to us.
For more information, see Regulatory Fraud, our report on what our Freedom of Information Act disclosed.
The hoops and hurdles are daunting to say the least, but not as bad as some have it. Once you have the required permit in Massachusetts, you can walk in to a dealer, put your money down and walk out with that gun the same day.
Never heard of anyone getting busted either, but I wouldn't want to be the first.0
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