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1980's era S&W C&R eligible?

JohnnyBGood
I saw a S&W revolver for sale made in the 1980's with foreign proofs and import markings. Apparently it was sold overseas and has now returned to the USA. Seller says FFL or C&R, but I'm curious if he made a typo about the C&R license. Nothing special about the revolver I'm aware of, a small or medium frame .22 with 4" barrel. Is there something about foreign proofs or import markings that can make a gun C&R eligible?

Thanks,

John
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Comments

12 comments

Date Votes
  • dogtown tom
    Is it on the C&R list at http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm?
    There is a main list and four updates. If the firearm is a 1980's and not on the list it is not C&R.
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  • dfletcher
    There are Smiths (and others) that are relatively new guns and C & R eligible. But they do have to be specifically listed. I've noticed alot of sellers do some sort of catch all phrasing which says in effect, "if the gun I'm posting is C & R eligible I'll ship to a C & R FFL. If it isn't, an FFL Dealer is required". But that shouldn't be interpreted to mean the gun being listed is C & R eligible. It simply means if it is, they'll send to a C & R holder, as compared to some sellers won't send a C & R gun to a C & R FFL holder.

    Off the top of my head, I can't think of an 80's Smith that's C & R eligible - got a model # or more info on the gun?
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  • JohnnyBGood
    quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
    Off the top of my head, I can't think of an 80's Smith that's C & R eligible - got a model # or more info on the gun?


    Made 1989.

    sw1.jpg

    sw2.jpg

    sw3.jpg
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  • 11b6r
    Thre are a surprising numer of S&W handguns on the C&R list- but did not see that one. Take a look: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1972-2007/section2.pdf
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Dogtown TOM:
    Is it on the C&R list at http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm?
    There is a main list and four updates. If the firearm is a 1980's and not on the list it is not C&R.


    Well, there actually ARE a number of relatively recent vintage guns on the BATFE C&R eligibility list.

    But to be clear, a gun less than 50 years old does not HAVE to be on the list to be C&R eligible.

    There are other ways it might qualify. Quoting the BATFE directly:

    quote:To be considered a curio or relic, a firearm must 1) have been manufactured at least 50 years ago; or 2) be certified as a curio or relic of museum interest by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum that exhibits firearms; or 3) derive a substantial amount of its monetary value from the fact that it is novel, rare, bizarre, or associated with some historical event, period, or figure.

    So in the case of an import firearm, it might be considered a C&R if the gun is associated with a particular historical event or individual.

    I can't say for sure that this is the case with your particular .22 (probably not), but its not absolutely impossible that this is true.

    Instead of speculating, why not simply ask the seller?
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  • JohnnyBGood
    quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
    Instead of speculating, why not simply ask the seller?


    Thanks, but I'm not interesteed in buying the revolver so I don't like to be a "pest" with phone calls/emails if I'm not serious. I'm just trying to broaden my knowledge base and thought some here might have a few clues. My GUESS is that the seller simply made a mistake about accepting a C&R.

    John
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  • Laredo Lefty
    John, That model 63-3 you pictured is NOT a C&R, even with the extra markings. Having import marks has no bearing on C&R status.
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  • rufe-snow
    The Proof Marks are Belgian, if that means anything?
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
    John, That model 63-3 you pictured is NOT a C&R, even with the extra markings. Having import marks has no bearing on C&R status.




    Being Devil's advocate, if the gun were owned by the President of Belgium, or used in some sort of high-profile crime, it might qualify as a C&R gun.

    Again, the criteria is just that it derive a substantial portion of its value from a historical connection.

    Now, in reality, I strongly doubt that this is the case, but its at least theoretically possible.
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  • dfletcher
    quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
    Dogtown TOM:

    Well, there actually ARE a number of relatively recent vintage guns on the BATFE C&R eligibility list.

    But to be clear, a gun less than 50 years old does not HAVE to be on the list to be C&R eligible. There are other ways it might qualify. Quoting the BATFE directly:
    To be considered a curio or relic, a firearm must 1) have been manufactured at least 50 years ago; or 2) be certified as a curio or relic of museum interest by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum that exhibits firearms; or 3) derive a substantial amount of its monetary value from the fact that it is novel, rare, bizarre, or associated with some historical event, period, or figure.

    So in the case of an import firearm, it might be considered a C&R if the gun is associated with a particular historical event or individual.



    I'd like to pursue this approach a bit, not to disagree per se but to discuss point of view and perhaps learn something - I'm of course loathe to disagree with a fellow New Englander who spells "shooter" the way I pronounce it. [:)]

    You take a broad approach regarding C & R status, I tend to take a narrow approach and it is that (unless greater than 50 years old) the gun must be on the C & R list to be C & R eligible. That is, if a particular gun meets any of the three criteria it is placed on the C & R list by ATF. Items 1 & 2 are pretty straigtforward, item 3 is also on its face, but I think there must be a process to determine if it applies.

    Fulgencio Bautista's gun is on there, Charles Lindbergh's gun is on there, there are others listed as C & R by virtue of association. If they were C & R eligible merely by virtue of the association, I don't think they would need to be so listed. Or has someone (gun owner, store owner?)decided "these are C & Rs", notified ATF and ATFs role is to simply catalog the results?

    If your interpretaion is appropriate - that being unique (item 3) rates qualification - who makes the decision? I don't think a person be able to say "my Granduncle owned this 1962 made Model 27 given to him by Chet Nimitz, he was awarded the CMH and an Admiral during WWII therefore this 27 is C & R eligible". There must be a process, some way of codifying that decision.
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  • countryfarmer
    I think the safest way to make sure a gun recent vintage is C&R is to have the ATF do a ruling on it. If they declare it eligible, then it is set in stone, no gray area interpetations.
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  • 11b6r
    If you feel that a given firearm, or MAKE or MODEL of a firearm is deserving of C&R status, you do not simply declare it to be C&R. Either the curator of a museum as listed, OR- seek a determination as such from the BATFE. C&P for ya-

    Sec. 478.26 Curio and relic determination.

    Any person who desires to obtain a determination whether a
    particular firearm is a curio or relic shall submit a written request,
    in duplicate, for a ruling thereon to the Director. Each such request
    shall be executed under the penalties of perjury and shall contain a
    complete and accurate description of the firearm, and such photographs,
    diagrams, or drawings as may be necessary to enable the Director to make
    a determination. The Director may require the submission of the firearm
    for examination and evaluation. If the submission of the firearm is
    impractical, the person requesting the determination shall so advise the
    Director and designate the place where the firearm will be available for
    examination and evaluation.
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