SELLER TO SHIP RIFLE NON-FFL?!
I bid and was the winner on an 1891 Argentine Mauser that has been "Sporterized". The Seller told me it's an antique and he can ship it directly to me. The receiver says "Loewe Berlin" and DMW took over later, but I thinks they made this Model right up to 1909 when the new Model based on 1898 action was adopted. I remember seeing somewhere that once you sporterized these (cut barrel down & add scope etc.) you eliminated the antique aspect? I think this has to be shipped to an FFL for me to take possession. Who's right? Don't wanna be wrong!
0
-
I can answer 2 out of your 3 questions.
The "age" of a firearm is determined by the date that particular gun was made, not when that model was made.
The "original configuration" requirement applies only to guns listed as Curios & Relics (50 or more years old), not to "antique firearms". Since you do not have a C&R license, it does not pertain to you.
I don't know if others can tell you the year this particular rifle was made without the serial number. But, if it was made < 1899, it is an antique firearm & alterations are irrelevant.
Neal0 -
Many of the older military arms had the year of manufacture on the rifle. If it was prior to 1899, you should be good.
C&P from ATF regs:TITLE 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 SECTION 921(a) (16)
(16) The term "antique firearm" means-
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, Or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica- -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
C) any muzzle loading rifle muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breech-block, or any combination thereof.0 -
The main thing to remember is: if he ships it to you and it should have went through a FFL, it is his butt on the chopping block not yours. 0 -
All Loewe 91s were antique. Some DWMs are antique. DWM took over in, I believe, 1891. There is published documentation to this effect.
The receiver is the part the ATF considers, or does not consider (in this case) to be a firearm.
Yes he can send a sporterized Loewe right to you assuming no local or state laws in your area prevent it.0 -
There is TWO versions of "antique" firearms....."To illustrate the distinction between
the two definitions of antique firearm
under the GCA and NFA, a rifle manufactured
in or before 1898 would be an
antique firearm under the provisions of
the GCA, even though it uses conventional
ammunition. However, if such rifle
has a barrel of less than 16 inches in
length AND uses conventional fixed
ammunition which is available in the
ordinary channels of commercial trade,
it would not be an antique firearm under
the NFA.
An antique firearm as defined in both
the GCA and NFA is exempt from all of
the provisions and restrictions contained
in both laws. Consequently, such an
antique firearm may be bought, sold,
transported, shipped, etc., without regard
to the requirements of these laws."
...Above FROM THE ATF WEBSITE.
You are good to go with any Lowe rifle like you talk about.If it was made in or before 1898 and has a barrel longer than 16" buy it.0 -
As has been stated, that rifle is an antique, and not governed by Federal law.
Sporterizing, even rebarreling, has no impact on the antique status.
All that matters is that the receiver was made prior to 1899.
You are fortunate to have a sophisticated seller who will ship this without using an FFL.
Lots of sellers require an FFL for any gun that will still shoot, they don't understand the law.0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
As has been stated, that rifle is an antique, and not governed by Federal law.
Sporterizing, even rebarreling, has no impact on the antique status.
All that matters is that the receiver was made prior to 1899.
You are fortunate to have a sophisticated seller who will ship this without using an FFL.
Lots of sellers require an FFL for any gun that will still shoot, they don't understand the law.
I agree with you allen except if it has been "rebarreled to another caliber." If kept in original caliber, or caliber original to design,{new barrel} or cut down with original barrel it is an antique. Adding a scope means nothing.
The whole thing should be simple but sure seems sticky when you look at it.0 -
I have not seen that rebarreling to another caliber would change the antique status. 0 -
Well....it seems I have received a big YES from ya'll on getting this 1891 Loewe Berlin Sporterized Argentine Mauser in in its' original caliber 7.65 x 53mm shipped right to my address. I apologized to the Seller and sent off the money order. Thank You!! 0 -
from empirearms.com
FAQ
Pre-1899 Firearms
Pre-1899 Firearms FAQ
by James Rawles, Clearwater Trading Company
Revised April 30, 2004
In response to numerous requests, here are the answers to the questions
that I most commonly get on pre-1899 firearms. The second half of this FAQ
posting lists serial number cut-offs for the 1899 threshold for many gun makers.
Q: What constitutes "antique" under U.S. law?
A: Although your State and local laws may vary, any firearm with a receiver actually made before Jan.
1, 1899 is legally "antique." and not considered a "firearm" under Federal law. This refers to the actual
date of manufacture of the receiver/frame, not just model year or patent date marked. (For example,
only low serial number Winchester Model 1894 lever actions are actually antique.) No FFL is required
to buy or sell antiques across state lines-- they are in the same legal category as a muzzle-loading
replica. I regularly ship them right to people's doorstep via UPS, with no "paper trail." Think of it as
the last bastion of gun ownership privacy.
Q: I saw a post that said that pre-1899s are considered modern "firearms" if they are chambered to fire
ammunition that is available off-the-shelf. Is this correct?
That is absolutely incorrect. ANY gun manufactured before Jan. 1, 1899 (other than a machinegun or
other NFA category, such as a short-barreled gun) is NOT controlled in any way by Federal law.
There is NO Federal requirement for sales of these guns to be handled by Federally licensed dealers.
They may be freely bought and sold across State lines by private parties, regardless of what cartridge
they are chambered in. (However, State or local laws vary.)
Q: Does sporterizing or re-chambering an antique end its exemption?
A: Sporterizing, re-barreling, or re-chambering an antique gun does not effect its legal status. Thus, I
can legally sell folks Mauser sporters that have been converted to modern cartridges (like .308 Winchester!),
without having to go through the "FFL to FFL" hassle.0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
10 comments