Guns belonging to famous folks
Howdy Pards,
Somethins rubbin me the wrong way this mornin. A while back a gentelman asked me to evaluate a Colt in his familys possesion. He advised me that the gun was all original and that he knew it was because he used to work for a famous gun manufacturer. Well, now here's the problem. The photos sent me were blurry and out of focus. The gun in question was not made untill several years after the historical event that made the former owner so famous. In some of the bad photographs you could tell some minor alterations had been made to the revolver over the years. I asked to see the documents from the family of the deseased and was not shown any. Now this same gentelman has reposted questions as to the value of this arm and naturally us members of the forum want to help. He is looking to sell it. I do think it is premature though to throw out estimates without even an examination of this arm. Did this arm belong to this famous person? Perhaps. Is it all original? No. Did this famous individual use the arm or even carry it during this historical event? No. Does the current owner of the arm want to accept this? I do not believe so. As to valuation...What is your average double action revolver made in the late 50s early 60s worth that may or may not have belonged to a famous American? What the market will bear of course. Buyer beware...
Somethins rubbin me the wrong way this mornin. A while back a gentelman asked me to evaluate a Colt in his familys possesion. He advised me that the gun was all original and that he knew it was because he used to work for a famous gun manufacturer. Well, now here's the problem. The photos sent me were blurry and out of focus. The gun in question was not made untill several years after the historical event that made the former owner so famous. In some of the bad photographs you could tell some minor alterations had been made to the revolver over the years. I asked to see the documents from the family of the deseased and was not shown any. Now this same gentelman has reposted questions as to the value of this arm and naturally us members of the forum want to help. He is looking to sell it. I do think it is premature though to throw out estimates without even an examination of this arm. Did this arm belong to this famous person? Perhaps. Is it all original? No. Did this famous individual use the arm or even carry it during this historical event? No. Does the current owner of the arm want to accept this? I do not believe so. As to valuation...What is your average double action revolver made in the late 50s early 60s worth that may or may not have belonged to a famous American? What the market will bear of course. Buyer beware...
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Buy the gun, not the story, unless fully documented. Even so, mere ownership by a famous person does not necessarily add any value unless it had some historical significance (used in a crime, featured in a movie, carried in battle, etc.). 0 -
I agree buy the gun not the story ! but I want to take this time to suggest you document any and all firearms that have a oral history each and every detail . I have two Colt pistols that are special as to who owned them They are worth a bit as just a pistol. But if I can tie the ends together would IMHO increase the value to a large amount. One is a first contract Ainsworth proofed SAA and the other is a 1911 sold to NRA life members 1915 time frame . With today's internet each year it may become possible to research a Firearm in the future . All I need to do to research the Colt Saa Is to examine this persons papers that are stored in the Georgetown University library. I found out about his papers this year the information was NOT available last year. I just need to get into the library. Might have to enroll to take a history course. The 1911 belonged to a Calvary General but I have not found his papers yet. I did buy a luger carbine model 1902 last year that was reputed to be brought back as a WW II capture weapon. I thought it was a B.S. story as the Luger carbine was never military issue . I bough the item and asked the seller to see if she could find any Capture papers [:0][:)] the seller looked through here husbands military discharge papers and Found Capture papers naming the carbine by serial number even a blind hog YADA YADA always ask for any paper work that might not seem important to the seller. 0 -
Weren't all vet bringback weapons classed as "captures". Even tho many were acquired post war in huge stockpiles of confiscated weapons.
In Japan, most if not all were military weapons. But in Germany, civilians were disarmed and the stockplies reportely contained a mix of military and sporting arms.
Thus we had many soldier "bring backs" of Drillings,shotguns, and non mil Mausers and handguns.0 -
Was there a question in that rant?
Oh "what is the average double action revolver from the early '50s-'60s worth"? Depends on the gun and condition, obviously. Lets say between $100 and $1500 would capture the overwhelming majority of them.
I'll add three bits here:
a. With "famous folks" guns, provenance is EVERYTHING. If you're paying for a story (or a historical connection), then the proof of that story/connection has to be impeccable.
If doesn't matter if the gun was owned by whomever. . .what matters is the PROOF that it was owned by that person. The value is in the evidence, not the gun.
b. Any gun that derives a substantial part of its value from historical interest or curiousity is (by definition) a "Curio and Relic", which can alter/simplify legal transfer of the gun.
Guns owned by famous historical figures would likely qualify. But again, without the proof, you don't have a C&R.
c. All you can do is explain to the owner calmly and objectively why you don't believe the story associated with the gun in question is true, and why you are convinced it isn't original. If he doesn't want to accept your explanations, then that's his problem, not yours.
If he wants to sell the gun, the market will determine the truth. While the "greater fool" theory suggests that there *may* be a gullible buyer for any fraud (or more charitably, misrepresented piece), sooner or later the market catches up.0 -
You've been given some good advice, my old daddy always said a story is only as good as the teller.
W.D.0 -
Here's my dog and pony story. I made myself unpopular with heirs in appraising a gun collection. He left several collections of guns, coins, archeos, projectile points & other categories. Three Colts, a SAA,'51 Navy, 1860 Army from famous evil doers. He had little invested in the guns themselves but he invested huge effort and resources, travelling out West, exploring old archives, interviewing, etc, trying to establish provenance. He had a dossier on aach that had convinced him of authenticity --- but all of it anecdotal, some of it supported by affidavits of hearsay evidence.
I think the guns were probably authentic but with no documentary evidence, I valued them at about $5500 instead the $250K he had put on them. I had been a close friend of this man since before WW2 when I was in highschool and wasn't happy in doing it but life is what it is rather than what we want it to be.0 -
jesse james mother sold many pistols of his long after his death as his personal guns. i think she would give you a letter to that effect of you wanted one. eastbank. 0 -
This guy, Colt Doctor, is in my opinion a "nut case" I am the "gentleman in question"
The pictures I sent him were NOT blurry, the pistol had NOT been altered in any way. I DID have documentation.
He has been previously censured for attempting to "hawk his wares" (Colt evaluations) on the WTB site.
He kept me on the hook for well over a month trying to pick the pistol apart, and imagining minor faults (i.e. "the grips were not correct" when they WERE correct), then said he had too many other projects.
He may be knowledgeable on SAA Colts, but I don't care for his insinuations, which were unfounded. I made a big mistake when I contacted him for help.
Sorry for my "rant", but I needed to clear the air on this one.
I'd have to say beware when attempting to deal with this "gentleman"0 -
quote:Originally posted by blacarrow
This guy, Colt Doctor, is in my opinion a "nut case" I am the "gentleman in question"
The pictures I sent him were NOT blurry, the pistol had NOT been altered in any way. I DID have documentation.
He has been previously censured for attempting to "hawk his wares" (Colt evaluations) on the WTB site.
He kept me on the hook for well over a month trying to pick the pistol apart, and imagining minor faults (i.e. "the grips were not correct" when they WERE correct), then said he had too many other projects.
He may be knowledgeable on SAA Colts, but I don't care for his insinuations, which were unfounded. I made a big mistake when I contacted him for help.
Sorry for my "rant", but I neerded to clear the air on this one.
I'd have to say beware when attemptinng to deal with this "gentleman"
I'm sure we would all like to read the story and see pictures of the handgun in question in order to form our own opinions. I hope you will share them with us.0 -
After rereading Colt Doctor's post I noticed where he said I had "reposted", asking for more help.
I certainly did NOT do this, I had enough after dealing with this guy. I have NO idea where he got that from, but suspect from his very vivid imagination.
I have given of my knowledge freely in areas where I could help.. I was the Chief Firearms Test Engineer at Browning Arms prior to retirement (documented).
Again, sorry.0
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