rifle barrel turning
I need a 22lr target barrel turned to a sporter taper. Any ideas on who can do it. I'm located in NY
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Yikes.
While reaming down a bull barrel can certainly be done, installing an entirely new barrel might be easier and/or more cost efficient, depending on the gun in question.
For example, ordinary Ruger 10-22 barrels can be had pretty cheap, and I bet you wouldn't have a hard time finding someone who would gladly trade your bull barrel for their ordinary sporter barrel at no cost to you.
In fact, depending on which gun, it may be more expedient to swap the gun entirely for a different one that you prefer. Remember, not only does the job you need cost money, but shipping both ways costs money (and hassle if its an entire receivered gun), refinishing costs money, etc.0 -
What brand and model rifle are you asking about?
Unless you have a friend with a good engine lathe and a steady rest that knows how to use it, it may not be cost effective.
In addition, you need to cut at least one dovetail for a front sight or mount scope blocks on the barrel using a vertical milling machine.
The barrel will have to be polished and blued.
The maker's name will be removed, killing market value if it were for example, a Win 52 that you wanted to convert to a Win 52 Sporter.
It's not a hard job but if you have to pay a machinist to do it, you're going to spend a good two hours labor.0 -
Basically any good machinist with a good lathe. But it won't be really cheap. Are you sure the barrel is for 22 rimfire as centerfire 22 and rimfire 22 have different bore and groove diameters. 0 -
Hello Dokey,
I'm here in UPSTATE NY too. If you let me know the scope of your project, I can hit you with some steller idea's. You can fly me an e-mail if you wish.
Best0 -
Turning the OD will relieve surface stresses in the barrel and could warp it. I have the equipment, but would not consider even attempting it. IMO, first take it to a smith who knows what he is doing before getting very far into this. 0 -
First you would have to cryogenically stress relieve it. (It can severely warp if you do not) Then you will have to be gentle with it in the turning.
From a cost efficient stand point, you'd be better off calling up brownells, or some other quality gun parts supplier, and buying a new barrel.
quote:Originally posted by Dokey
I need a 22lr target barrel turned to a sporter taper. Any ideas on who can do it. I'm located in NY0 -
Until Dokey stops back by and fills in the blanks, most of this is just supposition. However there are a couple of corrections that should be made for clarification.
"While reaming down a bull barrel can certainly be done,..."
Reaming is a process that is done to the inside of a barrel. The outside process is turning or contouring.
"First you would have to cryogenically stress relieve it."
While this might be what a gunwriter will tell you, it is certainly NOT true in all cases or even most cases. Barrels made in the button rifling process or those that have been hammer forges will obviously need some care and attention but not necessarily cryo treatment. Cut rifled barrels require no such treatment at all. If you have questions about this, ask or call one of the barrel makers since many barrels are recontoured on a daily basis.
Best.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nononsense
Until Dokey stops back by and fills in the blanks, most of this is just supposition. However there are a couple of corrections that should be made for clarification.
"While reaming down a bull barrel can certainly be done,..."
Reaming is a process that is done to the inside of a barrel. The outside process is turning or contouring.
"First you would have to cryogenically stress relieve it."
While this might be what a gunwriter will tell you, it is certainly NOT true in all cases or even most cases. Barrels made in the button rifling process or those that have been hammer forges will obviously need some care and attention but not necessarily cryo treatment. Cut rifled barrels require no such treatment at all. If you have questions about this, ask or call one of the barrel makers since many barrels are recontoured on a daily basis.
Best.
Firstly, It was not what a gun writer told me. It is in fact true in all cases to greater and lesser degrees for "any" machined part, that there will be residual stresses.
This information doesn't come from gunsmithing schools either.
It comes from a 35 year background in welding, machining, metallurgy, Non Destructive Testing/Examination, and a plethora of training and direct experience for all the above.
While reputable gunsmithing schools are generally good at teaching metal working basics, they don't teach no where near enough about the finer details of metallurgy at the granular level. Ask them what a sigma phase is or what metal typically is a body centered cubic lattice, or what delta ferrite or magnetic domains are, and you get the doe in the head light look.
Many don't even understand what austenite is, or what chromium oxides do for stainless 300 series metals (or what a 300 series metal is for that matter)
I have said it before, and I will reiterate it now, I don't make parroted statements of which I have no direct experience or knowledge. I don't read gun magazines any more as most of them are so full of bovine excrement, that it's a pure miracle the authors of the articles therein have not suffocated from swimming in their own BS.
As for cut rifling, it does in fact retain stresses just like any other machined part. Yes the barrel manufactures do recontour barrels on a daily basis, they cannot make a contoured barrel otherwise.
The problem with the statement is this. You as a person re-contouring a barrel don't have a clue what the rotation rate, direction of rotation, grade of cutting bit, or any of the other factors that go into a factory barrel are.
If you've actually performed machine work, you know what speed works for you and the tools you have. Can you be assured they are the exact same set up as the factory?
There are in fact residual stresses on and in any machined surface/part and if you come back and go the wrong direction and or speed, you increase those stresses.
If I significantly turn the barrel after the factory is done with it, into the liquid nitrogen it goes.
I've spent a lot of time working with cryogenics, everything from liquid natural gas tanks and piping, to military applications.
You want to believe it's no problem, far be it from me to dissuade you. However, you should remember warping is not the only potential for malfunction or poor performance. For liability reasons alone a good gunsmith would do well to get his or her self educated in the material sciences past the rudimentary level the typical gunsmithing course work allows. Below are some links to get you started.
http://www.metallography.com/types.htm
http://www.cryogenicsociety.org/resources/cryo_central/cryogenic_treatment_of_materials/
http://cryogenics.nist.gov/
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-06.pdf
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-07.pdf
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-10.pdf
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-13.pdf
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-18.pdf0 -
quote:Originally posted by cwi555
quote:Originally posted by nononsense
Until Dokey stops back by and fills in the blanks, most of this is just supposition. However there are a couple of corrections that should be made for clarification.
"While reaming down a bull barrel can certainly be done,..."
Reaming is a process that is done to the inside of a barrel. The outside process is turning or contouring.
"First you would have to cryogenically stress relieve it."
While this might be what a gunwriter will tell you, it is certainly NOT true in all cases or even most cases. Barrels made in the button rifling process or those that have been hammer forges will obviously need some care and attention but not necessarily cryo treatment. Cut rifled barrels require no such treatment at all. If you have questions about this, ask or call one of the barrel makers since many barrels are recontoured on a daily basis.
Best.
Firstly, It was not what a gun writer told me. It is in fact true in all cases to greater and lesser degrees for "any" machined part, that there will be residual stresses.
This information doesn't come from gunsmithing schools either.
It comes from a 35 year background in welding, machining, metallurgy, Non Destructive Testing/Examination, and a plethora of training and direct experience for all the above.
While reputable gunsmithing schools are generally good at teaching metal working basics, they don't teach no where near enough about the finer details of metallurgy at the granular level. Ask them what a sigma phase is or what metal typically is a body centered cubic lattice, or what delta ferrite or magnetic domains are, and you get the doe in the head light look.
Many don't even understand what austenite is, or what chromium oxides do for stainless 300 series metals (or what a 300 series metal is for that matter)
I have said it before, and I will reiterate it now, I don't make parroted statements of which I have no direct experience or knowledge. I don't read gun magazines any more as most of them are so full of bovine excrement, that it's a pure miracle the authors of the articles therein have not suffocated from swimming in their own BS.
As for cut rifling, it does in fact retain stresses just like any other machined part. Yes the barrel manufactures do recontour barrels on a daily basis, they cannot make a contoured barrel otherwise.
The problem with the statement is this. You as a person re-contouring a barrel don't have a clue what the rotation rate, direction of rotation, grade of cutting bit, or any of the other factors that go into a factory barrel are.
If you've actually performed machine work, you know what speed works for you and the tools you have. Can you be assured they are the exact same set up as the factory?
There are in fact residual stresses on and in any machined surface/part and if you come back and go the wrong direction and or speed, you increase those stresses.
If I significantly turn the barrel after the factory is done with it, into the liquid nitrogen it goes.
I've spent a lot of time working with cryogenics, everything from liquid natural gas tanks and piping, to military applications.
You want to believe it's no problem, far be it from me to dissuade you. However, you should remember warping is not the only potential for malfunction or poor performance. For liability reasons alone a good gunsmith would do well to get his or her self educated in the material sciences past the rudimentary level the typical gunsmithing course work allows. Below are some links to get you started.
http://www.metallography.com/types.htm
http://www.cryogenicsociety.org/resources/cryo_central/cryogenic_treatment_of_materials/
http://cryogenics.nist.gov/
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-06.pdf
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-07.pdf
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-10.pdf
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-13.pdf
http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-18.pdf
cwi555,
Being as well rounded in the metallurgical sciences as you are, you must realize that the cryogenic stress relieving would not be the only or even particularly the best option...if stress relief is even desired. There is magnetic resonance, and ultrasonic resonance too. Just so happens that the cryogenic is the easiest.
Please don't think you are alone with experience in the chemist or industrial metallurgical fields. There is plenty of expertise in all fields to go around on these boards.
The fact remains that there are some members here that have actively been involved with the R&D end of the firearms and modern cartridge development for decades...they too know what works, and what does not. Some of them even teach it on the collegiate level, and also have some background in many technical scientific fields.
I believe that we can all work together to make this a better place.
Best0 -
cwi555,
Congratulations on a stellar background in metallurgy! I can only account for small excursions into the area of scanning electron microscopy as it was applied to the examination and analysis of stress fractures and catastrophic failures of architectural metal fasteners. That and some machining experience...
"While reputable gunsmithing schools are generally good at teaching metal working basics, they don't teach no where near enough about the finer details of metallurgy at the granular level. "
Gunsmithing education is centered around teaching and training folks who want to be gunsmiths not metallurgists. There is no time in the two-year curriculum in general to train them as metallurgists and get all of the rest of the important things covered. They are free to take electives or advanced studies (independent studies) in that department if that's the way they are bent. This is not stating that metallurgy isn't important but that it is covered to the degree necessary for general gunsmithing.
"Ask them what a sigma phase is or what metal typically is a body centered cubic lattice, or what delta ferrite or magnetic domains are,...
Unnecessary and irrelevant when discussing General Gunsmithing. We are not talking about a BS/MS degree in Metallurgical Sciences. You're after the minutia of a specialty when reputable gunsmithing schools are based on educating and training folks who want to be gunsmiths, all within a significantly shorter period of time.
You as a person re-contouring a barrel don't have a clue what the rotation rate, direction of rotation, grade of cutting bit, or any of the other factors that go into a factory barrel are.
I wouldn't bank on that if I were you...
I am one of the greatest boosters and supporter of education that you will ever come across. But I will point out that if gunsmiths were to pursue all of the relevant specialties that folks like you think they have to have, that have application to their business, they would find themselves in school forever and not producing one tiny bit of tangible work. According to other experts, gunsmiths should also have a minor in Business/Accounting, Computer Sciences, Drafting and last but not least be a graduate of a Tool & Die program. Gunsmiths study and continue to learn throughout their lives while practicing their chosen area of expertise.
I did my 11 years of advanced education and now I have real work to do.
Have a good evening! [:)]
Best.0
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