High and Right
I have a S&W 360, 1 7/8 barrel and non-adjustable sights, which seems to shoot about 6" high and right at 15 yards. This may just be me, because I haven't put it on a block.
I have a S&W 686 4" barrel and a model 1917 5 1/2" barrel which shoots straight.
The 360 has the short grip. Is this due to the way I hold and squeeze, or is the revolver
I have a S&W 686 4" barrel and a model 1917 5 1/2" barrel which shoots straight.
The 360 has the short grip. Is this due to the way I hold and squeeze, or is the revolver
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Try .38 special cartridges, loaded with heavier bullets. The snubbies I've shot in the past were more accurate and shot closer to the sights with the heavy slugs. Nowadays with the real light weight revolvers folks are shooting the lighter bullets because of the recoil factor. The sights are still adjusted for the heavier bullets though. 0 -
Hello IMHO I have found that high right is the opposite of jerking the trigger but rather you are pressing the heel of your hand against the back of the grip as you are pulling the trigger termed "HEELING" or the fact that you may not be griping the pistol firm enough.
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Hello GIVETTE I see your point and I should have included in my reply why I thought he was heeling this pistol and not the others as Brier 49 pointed out that this was a much lighter pistol with more recoil . I have found each of us has a recoil threshold and this small pistol might be just over this shooter threshold until he shoots it more and builds up his tolerance .0 -
quote:Originally posted by perry shooter
Hello IMHO I have found that high right is the opposite of jerking the trigger but rather you are pressing the heel of your hand against the back of the grip as you are pulling the trigger termed "HEELING" or the fact that you may not be griping the pistol firm enough.
Absolutely correct, but a thought..wouldn't he be "heeling" with the other pistols as well? He has a WWI fixed sight revolver that is shooting to POA. Would the OP benefit from larger grips, or sumsuch..to duplicate the M1917 grips more closely? Just a thought. Joe0 -
The 2 that shoot fine do not have as much recoil,less heeling. Heeling is a push to counter recoil. 0 -
quote:I have a S&W 360, 1 7/8 barrel and non-adjustable sights, which seems to shoot about 6" high and right at 15 yards. This may just be me, because I haven't put it on a block.
I have a S&W 686 4" barrel and a model 1917 5 1/2" barrel which shoots straight.
The 360 has the short grip. Is this due to the way I hold and squeeze, or is the revolver
Snubbies can be hard to shoot well, especially with the teensy boot grips, and barely-existent sights. This is made even harder with the super-light weight guns like your 360.
I have two comments/suggestions.
-You said you didn't try shooting from a rest. Try that first and see what happens.
-Are your groups tight? My experience has been that fundamental marksmanship error (eg "heeling", etc) doesn't reproduce well. In other words, its pretty tough to "heel" a gun exactly the same way every single time, and you end up with a large group size.
Put differently, if you are getting nice tight groups that are consistently high and to the right, that's almost certainly an issue with the gun sights (or maybe your sight picture), NOT your shooting.
As mentioned, you might be able to move the point of impact a *LITTLE* bit with different weight bullets, but I don't think you are going to be able to drop the trajectory by fully 6" at 15 yards just by going (say) from 125 to 158 grain bullets.
Also, are you shooting .38s or .357 magnums? 158 grain .357s really aren't much fun from these Scandium guns.
As a matter of practice, obviously having the gun shoot exactly where you aim it is best, but if you are within 2-3" of point of aim at 15 yards, that's probably "good enough" for real world defensive shooting.
-If you are NOT getting nice tight groups, the problem is probably with you, and not the gun or ammo.
If that's the problem, either have someone else (who you know is a good shooter) shoot your gun, or alternatively, you might try a full three finger grip (rather than the boot grips) to tame recoil and promote a more consistent grip.
In my experience, going from the boot to the full-hand grips makes a HUGE difference in perceived recoil, and it does make it easier to shoot more accurately as well. The anatomic reason is that when you can squeeze down on the grip with your whole hand, you are tensing ALL of the muscles in your forearm, leading to a more stable platform.0 -
Thanks guys for all the imput. I am shooting 38 spl,158 grain. The heeling explanation makes sense to me. My groups are not tight with this gun though they are decent with the other two. I was shooting single action and trying to aim carefully. It does have a lot more recoil than my other two guns. As previousely pointed out, If I can be within several inches at 15 yards, it should get the job done. Yhe beauty of this gun is its light weight and concealability. I do have the larger grips and the next trip to the range I'll use those and also shoot from a block and see what the result is. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by duhshooter
Thanks guys for all the imput. I am shooting 38 spl,158 grain. The heeling explanation makes sense to me. My groups are not tight with this gun though they are decent with the other two. I was shooting single action and trying to aim carefully. It does have a lot more recoil than my other two guns. As previousely pointed out, If I can be within several inches at 15 yards, it should get the job done. Yhe beauty of this gun is its light weight and concealability. I do have the larger grips and the next trip to the range I'll use those and also shoot from a block and see what the result is.
Duh,
FYI, I am a big proponent of light snubnose revolvers for CCW.
One of the best things about the light snubbies is how they can fit into an ordinary pants pocket for concealment. For many people, that's the most convenient (or in some cases only) way to routinely carry a CCW.
The problem with the bigger grips is that in most cases they make pocket carry impossible (or impractical, if the gun is wedged so tightly in the pocket it can't be easily drawn). If you like to carry in a belt holster, no issue, but if you want to carry in a pocket, you have to be aware of this potential problem. Whatever configuration you are going to carry the gun in. . .you have to practice with it in that configuration.
Next thing, again, in my experience, contrary to the perception of the snubbie being a "simple" gun, there is a pretty steep learning curve to shooting one well. Even with ordinary .38s (not +P), recoil and muzzle flip are harsh (in my opinion worse than that of many bigger guns, like .45s, etc), muzzle flash is often bright, and again sights are teensy, difficult to see, and hard to align consistently due to short sight radius. More so than guns with longer barrels, very small errors in sight alignment in a snubby translate into noticeably larger groups on paper at distance.
It does take quite a lot of rounds downrange to get used to these factors to get good groups, again, more so than many bigger guns.
Apart from the grips, I'll offer a few more suggestions from my experience with these guns to help shoot a bit better. (And forgive me if this stuff seems "obvious"; I don't know how much experience you have shooting).
Obviously, with any gun, you have to follow the fundamentals of marksmanship (stance, grip, sight alignment, breath control, trigger squeeze, and followthrough) to shoot any gun well, and that's even more true of these little guns. When you work the trigger, squeeze it (like a lemon), don't "pull" it, and don't anticipate the shot. Let it surprise you when it goes off. Psychological anticipation of recoil is a common (maybe the most common) cause of inconsistent accuracy.
-Paint the front sight bright red (or a bright color of your choice, fluorescent yellow, orange, green, whatever) to help you see it over the itsy-bitsy rear channel sight. I usually use simple red nail polish because I happen to have some handy, but you could use one of the brightly colored gun sight enamels designed for that purpose, or some kind of bright enamel paint you can buy at an arts and crafts store, etc.
-When you shoot, unlike with larger guns, you want to hold these little snubbies with a DEATHLIKE grip. With your shooting hand, squeeze the gun HARD, and if you're using the boot grips, try to wrap your pinky finger over the butt of the gun so that you can squeeze with your whole hand strength (not just the middle two fingers). Then, with your other hand, squeeze further on top of your shooting hand for even more reinforcement.
All this squeezing should considerably cut down on muzzle flip, perceived recoil, and increase the controllability of the gun.0 -
Thanks Beantown. Well said, and it all makes very good sense to me. 0 -
Followup.
I put the larger grips on, put a bright red/orange dot of finger nail polish on the front sight, and went back to the range.
I fired bracing the gun on a block and was right on target with a very tight grouping.
I then fired freehand. The grouping was, of course, larger than when on the block, but at least twice as good as when I shot freehand with the small grip and most of the high and right was gone. So, I guess I need to practice some more with the smaller grip if I want to use it.0 -
There is a neat way to see if you have bad techniques with a revolver. It is called a "ball and dummy" exercise. You alternate live rounds with fired brass or empty chambers. Load one or two live rounds, spin the cylinder so you have no idea whether or not the gun will fire,close it up and then start squeezing them off. Or, have someone else load the gun. It is important that you not know where the live ones are in the cylinder. The first time you come to a "dummy round" or empty chamber you may see an outrageous flinch showing you if or how you are fighting the recoil. This technique will tell you if you are doing something that is causing you a problem. I've used it for years with firearms trainees--it works every time. 0
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