U.S. Military M9 Malfunctions
I am a U.S. Marine in Iraq, and I recently witnessed an M9 pistol misfire while the safety lever was in the "safe" position. No one in our chain of command believes this is possible, and the Marines involved are being charged with negligence-I was there, we were not negligent, and we are not incompetent. I am not crazy, and I know what I saw. Can anyone tell me if this is possible, if it has ever happened before, or why it happened? All research on the M9 says it has some of the most unique safety features a pistol could possibly have-so why did it fire while on safe? Oh and the trigger was not pulled. Please help. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Very Respectfully, Chris Counts LCPL USMC
Very Respectfully, Chris Counts LCPL USMC
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If the trigger wasn't pulled, exactly what was going on when it fired? Dropped, received a blow to the hammer, etc.? 0 -
Rather than a misfire (weapon fails to fire when attempt is made to fire) sounds like you may have had an unintended discharge (went bang when you did not want it to). Very important that the weapon in question be examined by an experienced pistol smith (probably depot level ordnance staff, not just the average company level armorer) to determine if there is a mechanical problem (broken, worn, missing, or improperly installed parts) 0 -
I have a beretta 92fs, which is pretty similar to the M9. I have dropped it, used it for a hammer(no round in the chamber), and it has been through rain, sleet and minus 0 degree weather to +110 degree weather, I have fired it atleast 7000 times, and alot more then that with my .22 conversion... and I have never ever had it fire unless the hammer struck the fireing pin because the trigger was pulled.
That said.. Anything is possible. but without the hammer or something else giving the fireing pen a hard knock, in my mind it would be impossible.. Maybe if it was hit hard on the hammer, but I think there is supposed to be a safty to keep a unintended discharge from happening.
good luck.0 -
In the Beretta 92's safety there is a piece of firing pin that turns up so the hammer can't hit it. And the hammer is disconnected from the trigger. I don't see how with that piece out of the way and the hammer down how one could fire.
With these safety features "ON" I don't see firing happening.
I have about 9000 rounds through mine shooting IDPA, and never had a problem or AD.0 -
As mentioned, the gun cannot fire with the safety on, *UNLESS* there is a SEVERE mechanical defect. I don't know of any such case, or even if one is plausible, but such if such a defect did exist, I think it would be obvious on inspection by a competent gunsmith or pistol armorer.
(Note also that if you follow the rules of gun safety, and be careful not to keep your muzzle pointed in an unsafe direction, even if it did go off by accident, it shouldn't cause a problem).
The Beretta 92FS (M9) safety is actually quite sophisticated and does three separate things when engaged:
a. It disconnects the trigger from the hammer.
b. It rotates the firing pin out of alignment from the hammer, and
c. It blocks the firing pin from moving.
So, with the safety on, no amount of dropping, shaking, hammering (even on the guns hammer), or trigger pulling can make it go off.
Now, that said there is ONE condition I've heard of where a gun can fire without ANY impact to the primer, and that's a "cook off". If a chambered round comes into contact with EXTREME heat, the primer may detonate, or the powder inside might ignite without the primer, causing a fire.
Needless to say, this sort of thing happens under really only two conditions: In a fire, and in fully automatic weapons that have been allowed to massively overheat.
The phenomenon is virtually unheard of in a handgun, and if the gun were really so hot that a round could cook off, it would probably be too hot for the operator to hold it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by countscm
I am a U.S. Marine in Iraq, and I recently witnessed an M9 pistol misfire while the safety lever was in the "safe" position. No one in our chain of command believes this is possible, and the Marines involved are being charged with negligence-I was there, we were not negligent, and we are not incompetent. I am not crazy, and I know what I saw. Can anyone tell me if this is possible, if it has ever happened before, or why it happened? All research on the M9 says it has some of the most unique safety features a pistol could possibly have-so why did it fire while on safe? Oh and the trigger was not pulled. Please help. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Very Respectfully, Chris Counts LCPL USMC
Firstly, let me thank you for your service.
I've read the rest of the post, but I don't see any fingers pointing directly at the primer. Let me assure you it's entirely possible to get a bum primer that is overly shock sensitive, improperly constructed, i.e. a primer cup that is to thin, a primer anvil that is not set right, or a piece of brass that has a shallow primer pocket.
It's not always the firearm at fault.
Now a lot of people will put low odds on that being the problem, and they would be correct, but ask yourself how many rounds of ammunition the U.S. Military goes through every year.
The law of large numbers effectively guarantee's that out of a large sample group (say a million rounds) at least one is going to excape the Quality Control department.
The law of large numbers is btw a valid and recognized stastistical tool.
While no one will ever really know for sure which if not what combination of problems caused this firearm to discharge, you would not be the first to have had it happen, and will not be the last.
I've had it happen to me personally.
The problem is this, the manufacture of primers and cartridges has been gotten down to an art. As the process has been refined, the occurance of these kind of incidences dwindle. Now it's literally to the "one in a million" probability of occurance.
It's not surprising that your chain of command does not believe it possible because that 1 in a million chance, is bounced against the probability of them having witnessed a 1 in a million chance.
It's kind of like witnessing your brother winning the big lottery.
How many people do you think they know, much less are related to directly that have hit the big lottery for millions?
Start adding up the number of lottery winners in the united states, then compare that to the population numbers. you have maybe 1:3,000,000 chance of being directly related to the winner, much less being the winner.
Therefore, they probably haven't witnessed it.
But that does not mean it doesn't happen.
The probability of occurance increases if the supply chain has sourced this ammo through a NATO member who is still using mercury fulminate. It's a bit more shock sensitive than the newer chems.
Bottom line is, it is most definetly possible for it to happen through no fault of anyone involved. This is why firearm safety rule #1 is always keep your muzzle in a safe direction.
When it happened to me, I went about performing some destructive test on a random sample base of 10K primers. I made one group inert by soaking them in mineral oil (except for one that blew up, lab safety rule number #1 always wear proper personal protective equipment)
others I fired and dissected, and yet others I simply weighed on an NIST traceable scale, and took a 1000 of them and x rayed them.
The thousand that I x rayed I made a jig out of a test barrel and a calibrated impactor. The standard deviation in energy required to detonate was surprisingly high. Within industry standards, but high non the less.
If your looking to defend your friend, my advice would be to go after it from this angle.0 -
Blind faith won't do it.
The Walther ppk also "wont" fire when the hammer is dropped with the safety lever but they can and do. This is a current issue with the S&W made pistols made under licence.
Over 50 years ago I repaired an original Walther PPk that had fired after dropping the hammer with the safety lever.
The M-9 needs to be examined by an engineer who knows what he's looking at.0
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