Winchester Model 70
I just purchased a used winchester model 70 xtr sporter magnum in 7mm remington magnum and on the opposite side of these markings on the barrel is the word featherweight,the barrel is 24"long and is clean {no open sights]non of my other xtr sporters have this.The markings are crisp and bright and match the other rifles.any ideas?
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My friend has a Mod. 70 in .270. It is a Bohler special made in 1955. I know Bohler is a steel manufacturer. Is the Bohler barrel the only thing that makes this gun "special"? It is in excellent condition. I have no pics but looking for a good ball park figure on what it might be worth. I am thinking about $1100.00 but can find no info on this particular rifle. 0 -
Cartod is your man for this one, but basically you have it right. Nothing post 64 touches the pre-64 rifles. The later post-64 70's did correct some of the changes for economy instituted in the earlier post-64 rifles, such as the extractor you mentioned. In that sense they are better than the early post-64 rifles. That said the fit, finish and overally quality of the late post-64s was not great. Still for a post-64 you did about the best you could, and for less than the $1000 or so you would have spent on a pre-64 shooter. If you were looking for an investment rifle, only time will tell, but probably a pre-64 would have been a better bet. If you were looking for a fine shooting rifle, I would say you did pretty well.
You agreed with me Cartod, you must be an expert! [}:)][:o)][:p]0 -
don't make me the M70 expert! I don't want that kind of responsibility. [:o)] He dog I think you got it right, there were alot of post 64 guns made, I mean like a million(compared to around half a million pre-64's). Of them the latter are probably the best looking but still no comparison to the mostly hand made pre-64 guns. Time will tell, but I think the post 64 collectible guns will be the higher grades along with the ones that are unfired in the box. The days of New Haven are gone forever. [:(] 0 -
I have a WRAC Repeating Arms Company made about 1986 in 30:06, and it is a 1 1/2 inch gun at 100. In to that 6 years ago at $600 with a leo 3-9x.
I have a 1953 made 270 but the antique Weaver 4x is so molded inside I haven't really tested it for accuracy yet.0 -
hildy,
The topic of Pre- vs. Post-'64 Winchester rifles will continue to be argued for decades. This can be as contentious as any other topic, which is fueled by emotions.
Leaving the time line history aside, I think that it's important to give consideration to the history of gunmaking, the modernization of postwar manufacturing technology, shifting social thinking/changes and improvements in metallurgy. World War I and II taught us and the rest of the world how to manufacture for the masses, inexpensively. Below is an excerpt from Jim Wisner's website which contains several paragraphs on both the Pre-`64 and Post-'64 Model 70 rifles.
From Jim Wisner:
POST 64 GUNS:
Gun production methods had changed to the point that Olin had to look at just how they made this model as compared to how Remington was making the model 700's. Winchester was making guns the "OLD WAY" using many machines & multiple operations to complete each part. Remington on the other hand had gained much from WWII production insight by using stamped parts wherever possible & different design methods when they introduced their new model 721 & 722 right after the war.
Winchester on the other hand was kind of stuck with the established & well thought of model 70, which did not lend itself with modernization without suffering dramatic cosmetic changes. The upper level management at Olin must have thought that they could convince the buying public that the newer models were just as good. Mechanically they were, but just try to convince the older generation that knew what they wanted, not what somebody thought they wanted.
http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/Winchesterpost_64_M70.htm
He covers most of important points in his discussion so I'm not going to repeat. It is very important to understand the shift from handmade, hand fitted rifles to the modern version of simplified manufacturing which enhanced the profit picture for Winchester. I have used the term `public outrage' in reference to this changeover in many discussions. Maybe that's a bit harsh but there was a ton of ink used to malign the Post-'64 rifles and way too many worn out jaw muscles repeating the same words written by the magazine scribes.
Simply stated, you can't honestly compare a handmade rifle to one made in a streamlined manufacturing environment; they are two separate entities. I happen to find the M54 and Pre-'64 rifles more pleasing to handle and use than the Post-'64 rifles. Bear in mind though that I often prefer an M98 Mauser to many of the modern rifles.
I have worked on and shot a large number of Post-'64 rifles. Some were not up to the level I thought they should be but most were as good as other rifles in the same market position. These over-generalized, all-encompassing statements regarding the poor quality and lack of accuracy are not generally true, they are just another version of the emotional reaction to the manufacturing process changes as conveyed by the writers and the public. As with any mass produced rifle, accuracy and reliability can usually be enhanced with a little tweaking and smoothing here and there. The biggest stumbling block was and is still the mindset of the public.
The return of the NEW Pre-'64 was welcomed as the returning Prodigal Son. Again, the emotions controlled the unveiling and public reaction. It was a good set of compromises made to satisfy the public and justify some much needed price increases to enhance the profit position of the company. For the most part again, the quality was O.K. but it still can't be compared to a handmade, hand fitted rifle. The last rifles to come out of New Haven were assembled from the remaining parts in inventory and could be said to be lacking in the finer points of manufacturing assembly.
FN has taken up the mantel of responsibility for the M70 rifles now and has had a rocky start with delays and manufacturing bug-a-boos. This is tantamount to an automotive designer trying to build a new factory while manufacturing a completely redesigned car. Tough duty. They have more work to do but they are demonstrating a commitment to the industry and manufacturing in America. Give them a couple of years to shake out the bugs and improve the production techniques and we should see a pretty nice rifle. I'm still a little baffled by the pricing structure but that's just me.
There will always be exceptions to generalities and this will follow that route I'm sure. Everyone wants to be the exception so stories about how bad a particular model is will come out of the walls.
There are dozens of websites that discuss this as well as some well-written books, which might be found in the library or used books stores if you're really interested.
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Howdy No Nonsense,
Very well put sir. Thank you for your educational reply. So sad the demise of Winchester. Hopefully it creates a new generation of collectors and arms enthusiasts in general...
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quote:Originally posted by hildy
Can you please help me understand some history with this gun? I was understanding the pre/post 64 issues. I also understand the newest version is a greatly improved gun. But what about the few years before New Haven plant closed. I thought the latest ones were supposedly better.
A recent Field and Stream magazine said the post 64 guns were cheaper and "weren't known for good accuracy". It didn't go specific if anything changed in the most recent years. Didn't the quality improve before the closing though. They went back to the better extractor and stuff. I bought a model 70 featherweight right before the plant closed because I was told it was a nicer gun than the earlier post 64's. It was closer to a pre64 quality. Was this wrong.
I love the look of my gun and it seems to have fine quality.
thanks
Man this is a great thread. I have enjoyed reading all of it. This year I bought my first pre-64 model 70. She was built in 1949 and is darn near perfect. It is definetly a rifleman's rifle. Showed it to my Dad when I travelled home earlier this year. I laid it on his lap and proceeded to tell me about the one he owned so many years ago. Regretted selling it, but I came along so he and Mom needed the money. I won't tell you the amount of years that rolled down his cheeks when he shouldered my model 70. told him 'dad what do you think'? He said 'son I am proud of you. Don't you ever sell this gun'.0 -
The pre, and post 64 Winchester Model 70...what a subject.
The pre 64's were all hand fitted as was said in earlier posts. The fit and finish are superb compared to the post 63 Models. The only Model 70 that is comparable to the pre 64 as far as the action would be the Model 70 Classic with the claw extractor...not that the ones without the claw are not nice, but just not the same. Also, don't let anyone tell you the pre-64's were not good and accurate shooter's...that is the reason they are saught after!
Some of the Classics that were made in the USRAC custom shop were very nicely put together, but the typical production guns were...well...just put together. Especially the ones that were made during the last year in New Haven. The typical production rifles can be made to be great shooter's, but some sins of original assembly need to be corrected by someone who is competant in doing so first. The rifles that are being put together at the FN facility in the Carolina's are being bragged up by some of the gun scribe's that are being paid to do so...everyone has to eat. However, the ones that I have seen in person appear to be about the same as the normal production from New Haven, and I would not dish out the $$ they are asking for one.
I have an Ultimate Shadow in SS, chambered in 25 WSSM that came from the New Haven plant. It was blah when I took it out of the box, but with some TLC like pillar bedding, free floating the barrel, and a trigger adjustment, it is one of my favorate go to Whitetail guns. I can say it will hold well within 1MOA with the Winchester 110 Accubond, and 85 Ballistic Silvertip loads. I have not yet worked up a load that it favors...had no need to.
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