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Questions about a Taurus .38

Pinwheel1
hi! I am following a case in a crime/trial forum and the defendant is up on appeal and the gun evidence is being questioned. i am trying to be columbo and i figured gun experts would know the answer to some questions for me. can anyone help?

this is what we are trying to find out.

-how popular/common are .38 guns in general
-how popular/common are wad cutter bullets (the were used to kill the victim)
-can a .38 with 5 lands and grooves fire a bullet that ends up having 6 lands and grooves on it
-someone asked this but i don't know if you guys would know this; are wad cutter bullets popular with criminals cus they are cheap

any answers would be great. i really really appreciate any help you have. thank you!!

pinwheel
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10 comments

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  • He Dog
    quote:Originally posted by Pinwheel1
    hi! I am following a case in a crime/trial forum and the defendant is up on appeal and the gun evidence is being questioned. i am trying to be columbo and i figured gun experts would know the answer to some questions for me. can anyone help?

    this is what we are trying to find out.

    -how popular/common are .38 guns in general
    They are not the flavor of the moment, but there are literally millions of them out there.

    -how popular/common are wad cutter bullets (the were used to kill the victim)

    Because of low recoil, and often low cost in remanufactured ammo, wad cutters are often used for target shooting. Not my first choice for self defense.

    -can a .38 with 5 lands and grooves fire a bullet that ends up having 6 lands and grooves on it

    Yes, in a universe far, far away. A bullet in our universe will carry marks of the lands and groves of the barrel it travels down, not some other barrel. In a movie world such a bullet could theoretically be fired down one barrel, paper coated and fired down another barrel, but that is for the top level shooters, not gang-bangers. And not with a revolver.

    -someone asked this but i don't know if you guys would know this; are wad cutter bullets popular with criminals cus they are cheap

    Generally speaking criminals are not very bright, that is probably a large part of why they are criminals. They use what they can get.

    any answers would be great. i really really appreciate any help you have. thank you!!

    pinwheel
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  • Pinwheel1
    thank you very much he dog!! the 5 vs 6 lands and grooves is being hotly debated right now and i don't know why. i had a feeling people here would see that question and be all WTH but i kind of knew what you were going to say. as a background for you the appeal says that the gun the defendant bought 3 days before the murder was a taurus .38 model 85b2 and wad cutter bullets. the victim was shot upt to 4 times only 2 bullets found and they had 6 grooves on them. the taurus web page says that the gun bought only had 5 grooves in it. they were wad cutter bullets though.
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  • rufe-snow
    quote:Originally posted by Pinwheel1
    thank you very much he dog!! the 5 vs 6 lands and grooves is being hotly debated right now and i don't know why. i had a feeling people here would see that question and be all WTH but i kind of knew what you were going to say. as a background for you the appeal says that the gun the defendant bought 3 days before the murder was a taurus .38 model 85b2 and wad cutter bullets. the victim was shot upt to 4 times only 2 bullets found and they had 6 grooves on them. the taurus web page says that the gun bought only had 5 grooves in it. they were wad cutter bullets though.


    It doesn't matter whats on the Taurus web page! If the revolver was recovered that was used in the shooting, and the normal ballistics tests were done. That identify the bullets to that gun, that's all they need. If the ballistics tests on the recovered bullets aren't the same as on the Taurus another gun was used, i.e. there was another shooter or the person who did the shooting had another gun. If neither of these previous points are valid, the folks at the ballistics laboratory are either incompetent, or they are trying to railroad the person who is on trial for the killing.
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  • dfletcher
    The 38 Special is a very popular cartridge and was for many years the standard issue caliber for most police departments. I would say it is in the top three or so cartridges for popularity in the US.

    A wadcutter bullet is typically used for target shooting because they are in general accurate and low recoiling; they are not always less expensive than other loadings. They are however almost always less powerful - a 38 can be loaded to different levels of power, generally a wadcutter would be on the low end. Jacketed hollow point bullets are typically loaded to a higher level and better suited for self defense purposes. I would not knowingly choose wadcutters for self defense purposes.

    If a bullet is engraved with 6 lands and grooves and the barrel of the gun in question has 5 lands and grooves, I think the conclusion would have to be that bullet was not fired through that barrel.

    Just a guess on criminals and their choice of ammo - I doubt that cost counts for much, it's not like they use alot of ammo. So long as the ammo is live I doubt they pay much attention.
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  • Pinwheel1
    quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
    quote:Originally posted by Pinwheel1
    thank you very much he dog!! the 5 vs 6 lands and grooves is being hotly debated right now and i don't know why. i had a feeling people here would see that question and be all WTH but i kind of knew what you were going to say. as a background for you the appeal says that the gun the defendant bought 3 days before the murder was a taurus .38 model 85b2 and wad cutter bullets. the victim was shot upt to 4 times only 2 bullets found and they had 6 grooves on them. the taurus web page says that the gun bought only had 5 grooves in it. they were wad cutter bullets though.


    the gun was never recovered. the ballistics experts testified that the bullet with 6 grooves was consistent with the gun purchased by the defendant but did not say it only had 5 grooves. so on appeal the defendant is saying that an expert cant say they were consistent if the 6 vs 5 means the were NOT consistent.....basically saying they lied or told a half lie when they testifed.

    some are now asking if the gun had a silencer if that would affect the number of grooves but i alreayd think the answer is no.

    It doesn't matter whats on the Taurus web page! If the revolver was recovered that was used in the shooting, and the normal ballistics tests were done. That identify the bullets to that gun, that's all they need. If the ballistics tests on the recovered bullets aren't the same as on the Taurus another gun was used, i.e. there was another shooter or the person who did the shooting had another gun. If neither of these previous points are valid, the folks at the ballistics laboratory are either incompetent, or they are trying to railroad the person who is on trial for the killing.
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  • rufe-snow
    As long as the gun used in the homicide was never recovered, the bullets from the victim can't be traced to a specific firearm.

    I don't personally know the type of rifling Taurus uses in their firearms. If it can be ascertained without doubt that their firearms use barrels with 5 groves rather then 6, it seems to me that the ballistic expert(s) who testified in the trial, are either incompetent or trying to frame this person.
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  • Pinwheel1
    thank you. the experts didn't use the word matched but they kept saying consistent and now the prosecutor is saying that they only thought it was consistent but didn't know for sure but thats not what the jury was told. i don't know. taurus was called by the defendents attories and they said that they've always made that model gun with 5 grooves so 5 can't = 6. not where i come from.
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by Pinwheel1
    hi! I am following a case in a crime/trial forum and the defendant is up on appeal and the gun evidence is being questioned. i am trying to be columbo and i figured gun experts would know the answer to some questions for me. can anyone help?

    this is what we are trying to find out.

    -how popular/common are .38 guns in general
    -how popular/common are wad cutter bullets (the were used to kill the victim)
    -can a .38 with 5 lands and grooves fire a bullet that ends up having 6 lands and grooves on it
    -someone asked this but i don't know if you guys would know this; are wad cutter bullets popular with criminals cus they are cheap

    any answers would be great. i really really appreciate any help you have. thank you!!

    pinwheel


    -.38 caliber revolvers are probably the most popular revolvers in America; there are literally millions of them around. (And to be clear .357 magnum revolvers can fire .38 special bullets).

    -Wadcutter bullets are usually used by target shooters. to punch a clean hole through paper targets (hence the name of the bullet). They aren't that popular for general use, and true wadcutter bullets are usually NOT stocked by ordinary "big box" or sporting goods stores anymore.

    -No, you can't fire a bullet through a gun with 5 lands and grooves and end up with six rifling marks on the bullet.

    *UNLESS* some VERY serious shenanigans were pulled first (ie reloading ammo that has already been fired through another gun, using specialty sabot rounds). This sort of thing is purely theoretical, and there are easier ways for someone who is interested in disguising a guns ballistics to do so, if they know what they are doing.

    -Of course any criminal would/could use any bullet available to them, but in general wadcutter bullets are NOT the most popular bullets used by criminals (see above).

    But that doesn't really matter, does it? If I run you over with my Ferrari, the fact that Ferraris are rarely used in hit-and-run motor vehicle accidents changes what, exactly?

    quote:as a background for you the appeal says that the gun the defendant bought 3 days before the murder was a taurus .38 model 85b2 and wad cutter bullets. the victim was shot upt to 4 times only 2 bullets found and they had 6 grooves on them. the taurus web page says that the gun bought only had 5 grooves in it. they were wad cutter bullets though.
    What matters isn't what the Taurus website says, but whether or not the gun supposedly used in the shooting matches the bullets recovered from the crime scene.

    If test slugs fired from the suspects gun match the ones from the scene, that's a match, period.

    If they do NOT match, or if the suspect's gun is NOT available for shooting, then you have a potential issue.

    If the slug fired from the suspects gun does NOT match the one recovered from the body, then you can only conclude that a different gun was used in the shooting. That doesn't necessarily exonerate the suspect since he could have used a different gun than the one he purchased three days earlier.

    The same thing would be true even if the suspects gun weren't available for testing. If the bullet from the scene couldn't match the shooter's recently purchased gun, all you can conclude is that another gun was used in the shooting. You can't draw any conclusions about the identity of the shooter.
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by Pinwheel1
    thank you. the experts didn't use the word matched but they kept saying consistent and now the prosecutor is saying that they only thought it was consistent but didn't know for sure but thats not what the jury was told. i don't know. taurus was called by the defendents attories and they said that they've always made that model gun with 5 grooves so 5 can't = 6. not where i come from.


    To be clear, "consistent" just means that the bullet in question COULD have come from the gun in question.

    In this case, a bullet with six marks on it is INCONSISTENT with being fired from a gun with five grooves and lands. It could NOT have come from such a gun.

    If the so called "experts" testified in court that a bullet with six marks on it was "consistent" with a bullet fired from a gun with five lands and grooves, then they're wrong. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, they probably just mistakenly assumed that the gun in question had the same number of lands and grooves as most .38 revolvers without checking.

    Now, whether or not this alone is enough of a discrepancy to merit throwing out the jury verdict and having a new trial is going to depend on the totality of the circumstances.

    Certainly, it might be enough, and if that's all the prosecutors had, it ought to be enough.

    On the other hand, if there were lots of other evidence tying the defendant to the crime (eg witnesses, proven opportunity, other forensic evidence, etc) it might not be enough. Not every single piece of the puzzle has to fit for you to see the big picture, so to speak.

    This sort of thing, by the way, is why defendants with money have a serious advantage over those without. If this defendant had hired their own expert to review the ballistics data, then they might not ever have been convicted, nor facing appeal.

    What I'd like to know is, who exactly figured out that the Taurus gun has only five lands and grooves, and when did they do that?
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  • RtWngExtrmst
    In some trials the prosecutor and "expert" witnesses are bigger crooks than the defense attorney. Neither they nor the Judge give a damn about the defendant.
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