9mm gold dot or golden saber
My 9MM shoots both flawlessly with 5 grains of Unique. My question is which is the best for a defensive load in a short (3 inch) barrelled 9MM?
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I like the gold dots better. The golden sabres come in two types and unless you get the bonded ones, the jackets tend to separate in the bad guy, which is not a good thing. 0 -
If your reloading, Golden Sabers are the best deal, money wise. I have bought them in bulk quantities from Midway over the years. Although lately with the problems with obtaining components it has gotten darn expensive, if you can even get then at all. For 9mm I use to load the 104 grain G S's "HOT!", using A A 5 powder. Shooting them into quart plastic bottles filled with water was a hoot. The jacket would rupture and separate from the core. The bottles would burst, with two exit points. The jacket would make a very large hole at approximately a 45 degree angle from the core. It definitely wouldn't be a load, you would want to be shot with. 0 -
rufe-snow...I thought the core and jacket on the newer GS were bonded together just so that would not happen.... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 5mmgunguy
rufe-snow...I thought the core and jacket on the newer GS were bonded together just so that would not happen....
Don't know about the latest production G-S's? The ones I was reloading were made specifically for use in .380's. I was loading them in 9mm at a muzzle velocity probably 400+ fps faster then they were designed for.
The core and brass jacket definitely didn't stay together after impacting the plastic water bottle. The bottle would rupture on impact, with the core completely penetrating. The brass jacket would stay in one piece, flattening out and taring out a approximate 3/4" dia. hole at 45 degrees?, from the impact axis of the original bullet.
This business about bonding the core and jacket are way overrated to my way of thinking. As a personal protection load, this would be much more effective for up close and personal self defense, i.e. the core would penetrate and the flattened brass jacket would do tremendous internal damage.0 -
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
This business about bonding the core and jacket are way overrated to my way of thinking. As a personal protection load, this would be much more effective for up close and personal self defense, i.e. the core would penetrate and the flattened brass jacket would do tremendous internal damage.
Well, human tissue is, in fact, generally more dense than water, and certainly less uniform. (This is part of the reason why simple 1 liter water jugs aren't an ideal surrogate for ballistics testing).
Loose jacket shards are of light mass and variable shape, and can't be relied on to consistently penetrate human tissue. Further, after being separated from the jacket, the leftover core loses some penetration ability because its lighter, and also because part of its energy was expended deforming and ripping off the jacket.
In general, fragmenting bullets are also more likely to be deformed by clothes or other intermediate obstacles.
Don't get me wrong, I sure as heck wouldn't want to get shot with one of these fragmenting bullets, but I think the dogma that rounds that hold together are going to give you more consistent results is correct. You probably are better off using the round designed for the caliber in question, and you're also probably better off not trying to push things too hot. If you need more power, try a larger caliber.
There is a reason why bullets of similar nominal diameter are designed differently to be used in their respective calibers (eg why 357 SIG bullets are different than 9mm luger, and why 357 magnum are different than 38 special, etc).
As a side issue, there is also that old dogma that you shouldn't handloads for defensive purposes, because of potential liability reasons. (IE in a less than perfectly "clean" shooting a prosecutor may portray you as a nutjob if you reload your own ammo). I can't say I know of any specific cases where this has happened, but it certainly bears consideration.0 -
Just my 2 cents worth , no less an authority than Massad AAyub and sheriff Jim WIlson has visited this subject several times over the years . In his opinion and for what it is worth mine too is that handloads for self defense is a risky move . Remember that even if the cops clear you you will still almost without a doubt be sued by the bad guys family. In any questionable situation you can bet that a lawyer will portray you as a nutcase who didnt think factory ammo was good enough for you .So..... you got in your basement and brewed up some super duper man killer loads ...... you picture the rest as the jury looks at your face as you attempt to explain you were just trying to save a few bucks . even with the cost of ammo these days stick to factory for carry and use the reloads for practice. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
Loose jacket shards are of light mass and variable shape, and can't be relied on to consistently penetrate human tissue.
There are no small shards with the brass jacketed Golden Sabre bullets I reloaded. At high velocity, the GS bullet hits the plastic water bottle splitting the water bottle. The whole jacket then separates from the core, (while it's inside the bottle), but remains in one piece. This piece then goes off at what appears to be approximately 45 degrees angle upwards. It than tears a very irregular jagged hole, "3/4"? through the side of the water bottle.
I just loaded these rounds for an experiment to see what effect these light bullets would have when fired at high velocity. For use in up close serious social situations, they appear to have the potential to be very effective.0 -
gold dot
they make some just for short barrel guns
my personal choice0
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