Need advice on .22 or 5mm
I want a long pistol or short rifle in either .17, .22/.220/.223, .204, or 5mm for long range target practice/varmint shooting. I'd like to be able to fire at least 500yds. I'd also like a collapsible stock or be able to convert to a shoulder stock, interchangeable barrels, and tripod for it even if accessory or custom made. How long must my barrel be to get decent groups at that range? I have experience firing at that range with centerfire larger rounds but I have no experience with varmint shooting.
Anybody out there make such an animal? How loud is the 5mm/35 SMc? I'd like as little noise as possible and I have a local gunsmith who can help with that if possible/feasible as well as other custom accessories. Obviously I'd rather buy it out of the box. I was thinking about something like a TC but don't see all the accessories I want nor all the range of barrels I'd like. I'm particularly fond of the falling block. I use to hand load and will probably get back into that.
If I'm way off target here someone point me in the right direction, please. Thanks. Great forum, BTW.
Anybody out there make such an animal? How loud is the 5mm/35 SMc? I'd like as little noise as possible and I have a local gunsmith who can help with that if possible/feasible as well as other custom accessories. Obviously I'd rather buy it out of the box. I was thinking about something like a TC but don't see all the accessories I want nor all the range of barrels I'd like. I'm particularly fond of the falling block. I use to hand load and will probably get back into that.
If I'm way off target here someone point me in the right direction, please. Thanks. Great forum, BTW.
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First, look at the capabilities of the calibers you list. Some (most)of them do not have the range you are seeking. Cannot recall a sporting rifle with a tripod. Bipod, yes. Very few accurate long range rifles have quick change barrels.
Are you talking serious (less than MOA) target work, or plinking?
You may as well give some serious thought to the glass you are going to need on that rifle.
Really don't mean to be sarcastic- but some of your wishes are mutually exclusive.0 -
Do be careful mixing up terms and equipment like "long pistol", "short rifle", and "collapsible stock." A shoulder stocked pistol or a short barrelled rifle is federally regulated, registered, and taxed.
I have read the usual gunzine stuff about ultra long range pistols built on XP100 or TC actions, but that is way beyond me, I have enough trouble getting hits with a real rifle.
Note that Highpower match shooters do very well at 600 yards with high ballistic coefficient bullets in .223. I don't know about those small gimmick calibers other than the puff pieces in the gunzines.0 -
quote:I want a long pistol or short rifle in either .17, .22/.220/.223, .204, or 5mm for long range target practice/varmint shooting. I'd like to be able to fire at least 500yds
If you actually want to hit anything larger than a barn consistently at 500 yards, then for practical purposes you've eliminated all pistols from consideration. You need a rifle.
Next, .17 caliber bullets aren't good for shooting at that distance, because the bullets are too light. That leads to poor retained energy at distance, plus increased susceptibility to wind.
It is possible to retain decent energy at 500 yards with .22 caliber guns BUT you have to use super-heavy match type bullets. That means you will also need a special high-rate-of-twist barrel to stabilize the bullets.
I'm not exactly sure what you want to shoot at that distance, but unless its a paper target or a very small animal, I'd suggest considering a larger caliber.
quote:I'd also like a collapsible stock or be able to convert to a shoulder stock, interchangeable barrels, and tripod for it even if accessory or custom made.
As mentioned, putting a stock on a pistol is against Federal law unless you go through a lot of paperwork first, and we've already eliminated pistols from consideration for any kind of serious long distance shooting. Forget that.
Virtually ALL super-accurate rifles use fixed stocks, for the simple reason that they are more stable, leading to better accuracy.
Folding or collapsible stocks are mainly an expedient for convenient storage, use in cramped quarters, or with body armor. Though you *could* do this, there really isn't much need for that in a long range gun.
Interchangeable barrels. . .now you've limited yourself to only a few possible models. The thompson-center gun could work.
If you MUST have the ability to change calibers, then you might want to go with an AR-15 (or maybe an AR-10) type platform, so you could swap out uppers for different calibers. It is possible to get very good accuracy from this platform, if you have the appropriate build.
I suppose that would also let you put on a collapsible stock, but if I were you I'd be more interested in getting an appropriately sized fixed stock with a nice cheekrest for maximum comfort and accuracy.
Tripods are mainly for machine guns, not rifles. While its certainly possible to put a rifle on a tripod (or is it vice-versa?), what I think you want is a quality bipod. Those are relatively easily mounted on just about any rifle and readily available.
quote:How long must my barrel be to get decent groups at that range? I have experience firing at that range with centerfire larger rounds but I have no experience with varmint shooting.
Barrel length really has very little do with intrinsic accuracy, and to the extent that it does, in general SHORTER barrels are more accurate than longer ones because of increased stiffness compared to their length, correspondingly better harmonics, and decreased dwell time of the bullet within the barrel. (The latter is really more of a factor for slow moving target pistol rounds, not high velocity rifle rounds).
The main thing is just that the barrel be long enough to stabilize your bullet and stay within the law. Longer barrels do have a few other advantages, such as potentially increased velocity, and decreased muzzle blast and flip, but they have other costs as well (eg increased weight, decreased portability, etc).
What you want is a nice high QUALITY match-grade barrel, plus of course, match-grade ammo, a match trigger, good optics, an ergonomic pistol grip, and all the other goodies that lead to repeatable accurate shooting.0 -
Boy, you can tell I've been out of shooting for a long time. I knew shotguns had to have a certain overall length as well as barrel length but I didn't know about pistols and rifles being the same. I guess I don't understand why they don't allow a collapsible stock on a pistol. It's already short. But I'll look it up.
I'm handicapped and I want the lightest thing I can get and still reach out. I wanted to shoot varmints and be able to shoot at a distance. I have other rifles for game; 7mm RUM, .270, .243, .300 WM, and my favorite a .25-06 Ruger #1.
I want a big caliper barrel to go with the rifle and I won't hunt enough, IMO, to buy another rifle. .338 or .375.
So that's why I was thinking TC. I just didn't know if there were others out there since I'm out of touch with things. I can have something built but I shudder to think about the cost.
BTW, I've fired at medium distances to 600+ yds for a long time but not in a long time. And I've always used either thirty caliber bullets or 7mm. I have absolutely no experience with shooting small caliber ammunition. If it's an oxymoron then I just need to know.
I do agree short barrels are as accurate as long (within reason) but I didn't have the slightest idea about rifling for smaller caliper bullets. I don't HAVE to be that accurate but at 500 yards you have to be accurate enough.
I don't know why I typed tripod. I meant bipod. We had the M60 which used a bipod. I've never fired a heavy MG. Well, the 50 was mounted but I never fired it auto.
Thanks for the help all. Appreciate it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by okwian
I don't understand why they don't allow a collapsible stock on a pistol. It's already short.
Not every so-called "gun control" law makes sense.
I suppose the idea here is to prevent people from having what are essentially easily concealable rifles. (IE if you could put a stock on a pistol, then you could conceal something far more accurate and powerful than most conventional pistols, increasing the practical range of the pistol, etc).
quote:I'm handicapped and I want the lightest thing I can get and still reach out. I wanted to shoot varmints and be able to shoot at a distance. I have other rifles for game; 7mm RUM, .270, .243, .300 WM, and my favorite a .25-06 Ruger #1.
What's wrong with your .243 or .25-06 for this application?
While other calibers could work too (eg .223, .22/250, etc) those are potentially very good longer-distance varmint calibers with the right loads.
You're done. [;)]
quote:I want a big caliper barrel to go with the rifle and I won't hunt enough, IMO, to buy another rifle. .338 or .375.
Why you need one gun that is intended to shoot both very small AND very large things, particularly given the others you already have at your disposal? I don't understand this.
Rifles aren't Swiss Army knives. 500+ yard varmint hunting is a pretty specialized application. If you have a gun set up to hit prairie dogs at 600 yards, that same gun isn't likely to be good for hunting buffalo. Are you going to be doing both things on the same trip, but not want to take more than one gun?
If you wanted to, the intermediate sized cartridges you have (eg .243, .25-06) are perfectly suitable for hunting very small to intermediate sized things, again, depending on load.
If you need to shoot truly large game (elk, bears, etc) that's why you have the .300 Win mag and some of the other big guns in your safe.
quote:So that's why I was thinking TC. I just didn't know if there were others out there since I'm out of touch with things. I can have something built but I shudder to think about the cost.
The TC guns are one of the only common ways to swap rifle calibers. NEF makes a "Handi-Rifle" that can also swap calibers. The common denominator here being that these are single-shot guns.
If you want a repeating gun, the the AR-15/AR-10 platform would be the way to go.
In terms of a custom build, unless you are made of money, forget it. Even if you could find someone who *could* do what you are asking, the cost would be astronomical, and you'd probably be better served just buying two (or three) different production guns instead.
Again, if I were you, I'd concentrate on getting ONE gun that does each application WELL, instead of trying to make one gun do everything. If you want to shoot varmints at 500 yards, get a gun to do THAT.
quote:BTW, I've fired at medium distances to 600+ yds for a long time but not in a long time. And I've always used either thirty caliber bullets or 7mm. I have absolutely no experience with shooting small caliber ammunition. If it's an oxymoron then I just need to know.
Its the same as large caliber, it just makes less noise and hurts your shoulder less. [;)]
Again, in general larger bullets (and calibers) are better for shooting at things further away. But you certainly can shoot things further away with smaller calibers, so long as the load/gun combination is right, you know your gun, and your limits.
quote:I do agree short barrels are as accurate as long (within reason) but I didn't have the slightest idea about rifling for smaller caliper bullets. I don't HAVE to be that accurate but at 500 yards you have to be accurate enough.
If you want to hit small game at 500 yards, then you have to be pretty accurate, period.
If, for example, your gun will group 1" at 100 yards, then you've got 5" at 500 yards (or worse). On a prairie dog, 5" is likely the difference between a hit and a clean miss, and that's not even taking into account other real world factors like wind, mirage, your ability to hold a group, etc.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by okwian
I don't understand why they don't allow a collapsible stock on a pistol. It's already short.
Not every so-called "gun control" law makes sense.
I suppose the idea here is to prevent people from having what are essentially easily concealable rifles. (IE if you could put a stock on a pistol, then you could conceal something far more accurate and powerful than most conventional pistols, increasing the practical range of the pistol, etc).
Ok, that makes plenty of sense.
quote:I'm handicapped and I want the lightest thing I can get and still reach out. I wanted to shoot varmints and be able to shoot at a distance. I have other rifles for game; 7mm RUM, .270, .243, .300 WM, and my favorite a .25-06 Ruger #1.
What's wrong with your .243 or .25-06 for this application?
Nothing although one son has borrowed the .243, another has the .25-06 and another the .300WM.
While other calibers could work too (eg .223, .22/250, etc) those are potentially very good longer-distance varmint calibers with the right loads.
You're done. [;)]
I doubt I'll shoot or buy the large caliper one unless I finally get well enough to go to Alaska. And for that I'd likely go on horseback and would likely take it and a true rifle.
quote:I want a big caliper barrel to go with the rifle and I won't hunt enough, IMO, to buy another rifle. .338 or .375.
Why you need one gun that is intended to shoot both very small AND very large things, particularly given the others you already have at your disposal? I don't understand this.
You're not handicapped. For one I can't see out my right eye well. I can fire a pistol ok with my left eye. I have had a lot of trouble trying to fire a rifle left-handed. I can even fire the pistol fairly well with my right eye (it's complicated). There's a lot more to it but it's kinda personal. I want a pistol I can turn into a rifle when I want. I can probably get an exception but I've never tried.
Rifles aren't Swiss Army knives. 500+ yard varmint hunting is a pretty specialized application. If you have a gun set up to hit prairie dogs at 600 yards, that same gun isn't likely to be good for hunting buffalo. Are you going to be doing both things on the same trip, but not want to take more than one gun?
I want one gun I can do two things with which is generally why someone would want interchangeable barrels. It needs to be light and compact enough for me to carry well, climb, yada.
If you wanted to, the intermediate sized cartridges you have (eg .243, .25-06) are perfectly suitable for hunting very small to intermediate sized things, again, depending on load.
If you need to shoot truly large game (elk, bears, etc) that's why you have the .300 Win mag and some of the other big guns in your safe.
Yes, I know. I used to hand load my weapons even shotgun shells. I understand how to chose ballistics and weapons for purpose.
quote:So that's why I was thinking TC. I just didn't know if there were others out there since I'm out of touch with things. I can have something built but I shudder to think about the cost.
The TC guns are one of the only common ways to swap rifle calibers. NEF makes a "Handi-Rifle" that can also swap calibers. The common denominator here being that these are single-shot guns.
I'm fine with a single shot. I've never fired more than once quickly. Now if I go somewhere things can harm me I'd have a double rifle or a bolt action for sure. And a side arm with lots of punch.
If you want a repeating gun, the the AR-15/AR-10 platform would be the way to go.
This is the kind of thing I need to know.
In terms of a custom build, unless you are made of money, forget it. Even if you could find someone who *could* do what you are asking, the cost would be astronomical, and you'd probably be better served just buying two (or three) different production guns instead.
Again, if I were you, I'd concentrate on getting ONE gun that does each application WELL, instead of trying to make one gun do everything. If you want to shoot varmints at 500 yards, get a gun to do THAT.
quote:BTW, I've fired at medium distances to 600+ yds for a long time but not in a long time. And I've always used either thirty caliber bullets or 7mm. I have absolutely no experience with shooting small caliber ammunition. If it's an oxymoron then I just need to know.
Its the same as large caliber, it just makes less noise and hurts your shoulder less. [;)]
Again, in general larger bullets (and calibers) are better for shooting at things further away. But you certainly can shoot things further away with smaller calibers, so long as the load/gun combination is right, you know your gun, and your limits.
quote:I do agree short barrels are as accurate as long (within reason) but I didn't have the slightest idea about rifling for smaller caliper bullets. I don't HAVE to be that accurate but at 500 yards you have to be accurate enough.
If you want to hit small game at 500 yards, then you have to be pretty accurate, period.
If, for example, your gun will group 1" at 100 yards, then you've got 5" at 500 yards (or worse). On a prairie dog, 5" is likely the difference between a hit and a clean miss, and that's not even taking into account other real world factors like wind, mirage, your ability to hold a group, etc.
People have fired prone from 500 yds at a 20" circle with iron sights for many years now. In fact, in the 'olden' days you were required to fire from the 1000 line. Yes, you need to be pretty close at 50 or 100 to hit things at that distance. Which is why you need something fast, heavy enough, and aerodynamic enough.
But I know little about firing small and light caliper bullets or the guns that fire them. I haven't been to a range or in a gun shop in many years so I'm not up to date with what's out there.0 -
For a chambering, you might want to consider something with a 6.5mm bullet diameter. The Scandanavian's have been killing off Moose with them for almost a century now. I love my 260 Remington, and the 6.5-284 is popular also...as the 6.5x55 Swede.
My suggestion for a rifle/pistol would be this
Buy a TC Encore rifle, and then if legal in your state/area, get it registered as a SBR...Short Barreled Rifle. That way, you can have a shoulder stock on it, and a short pistol barrel. I am sure someone with the know could make a side folding stock to suit your needs. Perhaps even one with cast off to shoot it withit shouldered on your right shoulder, and shooting left eye dominant. with the TC, you have many options to use for a barrel chambered in your choice.
Hope this helps
Best0 -
maybe a 7mmTCU ?
223 necked up to 7mm older chambering for T/C Contender0 -
quote:Originally posted by gskyhawk
maybe a 7mmTCU ?
223 necked up to 7mm older chambering for T/C Contender
I'm not familiar with that but it would give me a lot of room for powder and a heavier bullet. I'll look into it.0 -
Ok, getting somewhere. I just talked with Jim Kelly in Darlington SC and they do custom gun stock work. He said it wouldn't be a problem making a 'crossover' stock for me.
However, I need a permit for a SBR before buying the gun. The dealer in Columbia SC told me it would take no longer than 45 days. I guess we'll see.
Now to pick out a barrel/caliper for real.
I'm also nearly deaf (probably from shooting guns years ago) and will want a suppressor for it. I suppose I need a separate permit (and another $200) for that as well???0
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