Iron Sight Question
I recently bought an AR-15 and am having trouble zeroing the gun.
Should the point of impact be immediately above the front sight post?
The manual has an illustration of a nice round target that fills the aperature at 25 meters...and the front sight post is level with the bottom of the round target, and the point of impact is in the middle...
Which is actually 4 inches above the tip of the front sight post (roughly).
Not sure how to better explain this. Just wondering if anyone has experience with the A-2 AR-15 or M-16 sights could provide some guidance, or attempt at describing how it should be.
Thanks.
Should the point of impact be immediately above the front sight post?
The manual has an illustration of a nice round target that fills the aperature at 25 meters...and the front sight post is level with the bottom of the round target, and the point of impact is in the middle...
Which is actually 4 inches above the tip of the front sight post (roughly).
Not sure how to better explain this. Just wondering if anyone has experience with the A-2 AR-15 or M-16 sights could provide some guidance, or attempt at describing how it should be.
Thanks.
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The AR series is no different than any other type of firearm. Weather you cover the target with the front sight or use a 6 oclock hold is up to you. If you use the same sight picture every time it really doesent matter. With that said, the most commonly used method is to hold the front sight and have the bullet strike just at the top of the post, think of a cone of ice cream with a dallop on top.... Hope that helps. 0 -
That does help, thank you. 0 -
Waltur,
Welcome to the Gunbroker Forums!
Using the 6 o'clock hold also preserves your aiming point since using the bullseye will eventually lead to no precision aiming point as you shoot it out.
There are all sorts of new(er) target designs to promote this idea:
Enjoy your shooting!
Best.0 -
The 6 o'clock hold is called the " Navy " hold. The hold where the bullet srikes just above the front site is called the "Army" hold. Take your pick. 0 -
Thanks for the welcome, nononsense!
Also, thank you (and mbsams) for the information, too.
I went out again today after reading Alleno's comments and think I'm more comfortable with the "Army" sight picture.
Now I just need 20 or 30 years of quality practice!
One step at a time...thanks again.0 -
I've never heard the terms "Army" and "Navy" used to refer to the traditional and six'o'clock sight pictures. I kind of doubt its historically true that the two services in question actually rely on solely those two types of aiming.
I think "center hold" or "point of aim" and "six'o'clock" hold are pretty self-explanatory.
Anyway, hunters and combat shooters usually like the traditional "point of aim" sight picture where the bullet impacts exactly at the top of the front sight post aiming point.
This sight picture is easier conceptually for shooting targets of different sizes and/or varying distances.
Unless you intend to shoot mostly or entirely paper/bullseye targets this is probably the better way to go. The biggest drawback of it is that the front sight post can obscure some or most of the target you are aiming at.
Target/bullseye shooters generally prefer the 6'o'clock type hold for two reasons.
The most important reason is that against the usual bullseye target it usually gives you a better/crisper sight picture for increased accuracy.
It can be hard to get a perfectly repeatable sight picture when your black front sight is "floating" around the middle of a dark black background target. Not only can it be hard to see a dark sight post against a dark colored target but can also be hard to know exactly when you are in the center if the appearance of the target is larger than the width of the front sight post.
Instead, you can get a much better sight picture by having the dark front post sit at the round bottom of the bulleye, where the white background meets the black target, and the flat part of the upper post "touches" the round part at the bottom of the target (sort of like a "lollipop").
Also, many shooters (myself included) like to leave the slightest "sliver" of light between the top of the front post and the 6-o-clock target bottom to ensure maximum contrast and repeatability.
The other reason for the 6-o-clock hold has been mentioned. If you are always hitting the target exactly at the point of aim, after repeated hits on a bullseye target, you're chewing away your aiming point, making aiming harder! Having the bullet strike slightly high of your aiming point with the 6'o'clock hold prevents this problem.
This image shows the two common sight pictures, in this case for pistol sights:0 -
Anything but 'point of aim' is for shooting at known size targets at predetermined/fixed distances. In other words, 6 o'clock hold and such is strictly for paper punchers on the range.
Use out there in the real world of widely varying distances and target sizes it requires that a firearm be zeroed with POA/Center Hold sighting.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
Anything but 'point of aim' is for shooting at known size targets at predetermined/fixed distances. In other words, 6 o'clock hold and such is strictly for paper punchers on the range.
Use out there in the real world of widely varying distances and target sizes it requires that a firearm be zeroed with POA/Center Hold sighting.
I do largely agree, but to be fair shooting paper targets *IS* the "real world" for many shooters, who may never use certain guns for hunting or defensive use. In fact, its probably true that most rounds fired in the USA are shot at paper targets.
As a minor matter, even in the "real world" of hunting/defensive shooting, often the target size *is* known, even if the distance isn't.
In other words, many individual guns are basically dedicated to shooting deers, squirrels, groundhogs, people, etc. While individual animals may vary a small amount in size (eg one squirrel to another) for practical purposes, they are more or less the same size, and variation in target size isn't really a factor.
More important, no matter WHAT the target size is, you still should be aiming at a POINT, be it a vital area, or merely the center of the target.
As another relevant matter, if you are shooting at varying distances in the "real world", you still may have to compensate for bullet drop, especially for small targets at distance. In other words, even with "center hold" your bullet isn't necessary going to hit exactly where you aim it, and you may have to compensate with your elevation accordingly.
For this reason many shooters deliberately zero their sights such that the point of impact is a few inches higher than the point of aim, to help compensate for bullet trajectory/drop at distance.
The "6'o'clock" hold is really just the same thing. . .you're deliberately setting your point of impact a fixed distance above the point of aim at a certain target range. Its just a question of extent.
2-3 inches above point of aim may be enough offset for the "6'o'clock" hold on small targets, but not so much that it makes a significant difference shooting at large targets (like people deer, etc). Alternatively, even with "6'o'clock" hold at one particular distance, you're still going to be shooting to point-of-aim at a different (eg further) distance.
Ultimately, I think the most important thing is just that the shooter be familiar with their particular weapon and where it shoots relative to point of aim at likely target distances. Once you are there, you can compensate accordingly for holdover, "6'o'clock" sight picture, etc, as necessary.0 -
With a 6 o'clock hold you may be capable of placing a hit precisely X inches high at precisely X distance, but when this distance changes and that round's trajectory starts coming into play you've thrown in a wild variable that greatly complicates calculating point of impact. Firing up or downhill really throws a curve into this. If you head for the field zeroed using 6 o'clock hold on your favorite size bullseye target you'd better be intimately familiar with your round's arc and very good at range estimation.
IMHO, zeroing to point of aim ance greatly simplifies things when you step off the shooting range.
As for targets in the field being of known size, what you say is correct only if things go perfectly. With a certain percentage of shots you're forced to simply go for 'center of mass of the target presented'.0 -
I use 6 o'clock holds. Most target shooters using military weapons do the same if using peep or notch sights. When using double peep sights, then I do center holds.
I believe "navy hold" is to shoot at 12 o'clock. There is the center hold as well. At least that's how my NRA highpower manual describes it.
For paper 6 o'clock is easiest to repeat. Having the gun shoot 4" high at 100 yards is just about right to get you in the 9-10 ring. In fact if my gun shoots to POA at 6 o'clock I raise the sights.
Nothing wrong with your AR. You didn't post what distance you were shooting at. Bullet weight, velocity, etc. affects POI. You just need to find the sweet spot.0
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