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Model 1886 .38-56 Caliber Winchester Rifle Help

skyshadows74
Hello,

I have a very nice model of this Rifle in full working condition and in very good shape. I am attaching some photos, please the photos don't really do it justice, but I did the best I could. Only a couple of Mar's on screws that you would expect, like at the end of the tube for the rounds. I have taken it to 5 Gun Shows and told by 5 different dealers that this is a solid $4000 to $5000 dollar rifle. Can someone help me to see if this is about accurate? I have done my research on this rifile. There were only approx about 125,000 made I think. I have not been able to find any rounds for this rifle ANYWHERE and I have looked long and far, but I have 7 original rounds so they can be reproduced. I am looking to sell this rifle out of my collection. If someone could help me just verify some info about it and its value (Ballpark) that would be great! Also if someone is interested, please let me know. I will post it in the ad's section. I just wanted to verify all the information about this rifle first. Thank you so much. Hope these links work to the photos.

http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/14.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/1.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/9.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/8.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/7.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/5.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/10.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/4.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/12.jpg
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/skyshadows74/17.jpg

Those are individual links to photos I have but I can provide more photos if needed no problem!
Any help on history, price I should be going for, anything anyone can provide would be GREATLY appreciated cause I want to go ahead and sell this Rifle ASAP, its hard to part with it, but I need to windle down my collection.
Thanks to all of you that respond in advance!!

Luke
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Comments

14 comments

Date Votes
  • TRAP55
    http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6276.html
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  • skyshadows74
    Thanks, I know I can get ammo for it, but I would never shoot this Rifle being of its age and value. But it is nice to know that there is ammo out there. I never found that link, thanks for sending that. Maybe for someone who wants to buy the rifle that will be valube info cause I know the Rifle will shoot, its in such good condition, but I just wouldn't do it cause of the value and age. But thank you!! Very much!

    Luke
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  • CapnMidnight
    The 38-56 Winchester is the same as the 38-55 Ballard or Marlin, back in the day Winchester didn't want to make guns that had someone else' name on the caliber. Bert can tell you much more about this. I have a Marlin model 1893 in 38-55, did a bunch of research on the caliber years ago, thats how I learned the story.
    For what it's worth.
    W.D.
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  • rufe-snow
    quote:Originally posted by CapnMidnight
    The 38-56 Winchester is the same as the 38-55 Ballard or Marlin, back in the day Winchester didn't want to make guns that had someone else' name on the caliber. Bert can tell you much more about this. I have a Marlin model 1893 in 38-55, did a bunch of research on the caliber years ago, thats how I learned the story.
    For what it's worth.
    W.D.



    No offense, there not the same. Years back I had the chance to buy a Marlin in 38-56. It's a bottle neck cartridge, whereas the 38-55 has a shoulderless tapered case.
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  • skyshadows74
    The last poster is true, the .38-55 and the .38-56 for my Winchester rifle are not the same..Most of the 1886 models have been chambered is a round that is tappered, but basically a smooth cartrage all the way to the top, the .38-56 is not, it is a bottle neck cartrage, it is tapered from about 3/4 the way up and slimmed down to fit. It is not the same cartrage as those other wepons. The 38-56 is a rare caliber, I have in over 40 gun shows have never seen a 38-56 like mine, plenty of other models, but not the 38.56, it was the only one with a round that was actually bottle necked from where the back of the actual round starts all the way to the top of the brass where it is crimped. The others are not like that, they have a tapper, but its a smooth round without a DISTICTIVE taper or cut down on the brass. It was done this way so they could pack more powder in it and make it into a longer range long gun that had a longer range that its larger counterpart 1886 models.
    Luke
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  • Bert H.
    This is not going to be pleasant news for you... and your research was sorely lacking.

    First, Winchester manufactured 160,000 Model 1886 guns fron 1886 - 1935. Of that total, 18,483 were made in 38-56 W.C.F. (which as several other have pointed out, is not the same as the 38-55).

    Of all the various cartridge chamberings offered in the Model 1886, the 38-56 W.C.F. is the most anemic, and is therefore the least desirable to collectors and shooters.

    The graded condition of our old Model 1886 is not "very nice", nor is it very high on the scale (10% at best), and as such, it is no where near being worth $4K - $5K. I see Model 1886 rifles in similar condition & caliber routinely sell for $1600 - $2000. If you can take it back to one of those dealers and get them to give you that kind of $$$$, do it right now! If it is a post-1898 manufactured rifle, it will be a tough sell at the $1600 mark. The serial number will tell us when it was made.

    As others have pointed out, 38-56 W.C.F. cartridge is available from a number of sources... and you will not hurt the value of that old rifle if you want to take it out and shoot it on a regular basis.
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by skyshadows74
    The 38-56 is a rare caliber, I have in over 40 gun shows have never seen a 38-56 like mine, plenty of other models, but not the 38.56, it was the only one with a round that was actually bottle necked from where the back of the actual round starts all the way to the top of the brass where it is crimped. The others are not like that, they have a tapper, but its a smooth round without a DISTICTIVE taper or cut down on the brass. It was done this way so they could pack more powder in it and make it into a longer range long gun that had a longer range that its larger counterpart 1886 models.
    Luke


    Luke,

    I beg to differ... I have seen hundreds of them in 38-56 W.C.F., and there are no serious Model 1886 collectors that consider it a "rare" cartridge.

    Ballistically, the 38-55 and the 38-56 W.C.F. are nearly identical. Both were manufactured with a 255-grain bullet with the 38-55 in the mid 1300 fps range, and the 38-56 W.C.F. in the high 1300 fps range. When reloading with modern powders, there is no difference between the two.
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  • skyshadows74
    Well I certainly didn't want to raise anyone's temps here, when I meant rare, I meant, I haven't seen them ever at shows and I go all the time. Now that may beacuse I don't go to shows in El Paso, Or Dallas, Houston, and such, where this rifile can really be appreciated as a western rifle! Me saying it has to be rare, well actually the guy above made that point for me, if only 18,000 or so made 1886 rifles were actually made, and out of that they were no all 38-56 rifles, Hmm let me see, 123 years have gone by, I wonder how many have been just thrown away back in the day when they were trashed? I wonder how many have actually survived till today in good enough condidtion that you would want it, and want to shoot it, out of that number you think there are about a bit over 300 million...I would call less that 18,000 or so made, out of that a bunch of 38-55s 123 years passed and you have a pretty rare rifile on your hands. Just doing the math and all, heck I could not know a dang thing about all this..:) Enemic cartrage, have you ever seen a 38-56 slug? And the size of the cartrage? I wouldn't call that enemic, maybe of the series..but as a former sniper I would have rather had that round than any of the other calibers. That round would stay in flight a lot longer than any of those aother rounds. A good shot is a good shot.

    To the other poster that says they have one, well mine is is excellent condition, nowhere near 10%, it rates at a very good to excellent. I have already had many offer me 4 to 5k for that rifle, because of its condition and it is also a case hardended one so that makes it even more valuble. If you look it up in the actual gun blue books..;) It is worth a lot more than that..lol..Don't know why those books seem to be so unaccurate. Anyway, I didn't mean to get people upset. Please all read the post before you post please. I know I can get ammunition for it now, I don't need to be told again. I know how name 1886's were made and all the models. Don't need a history lesson, just wanted to know from some people, thier experience owning and selling a 38-56 winchester.
    Thank you and good day to you!
    Luke
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  • rufe-snow
    Unless one of those dealers actually offered you $4000-$5000 cash for your Model 1886, it's all so much hot air and BS.

    The way things are going down the toilet in this country, nowadays. Get what can, as quick as you can.

    Your on the largest net gun auction site, here. Put it on the auction with a reasonable starting price. Let the bidders reveal the actual fair market value.

    All the jawboneing, and shucking and jiveing on a gun collectors forum is meaningless. Money talks, BS walks.
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  • skyshadows74
    I agree. I just thought I would pick the brains of some educated people on the subject. Also I would like to aplologize, there seemed to be a ton of typos in my post. I don't know why because I typed it 2 times, I deleted it once by accident.
    As far as the rarity of the rifle, my point was it is a rare rifle and the poster above that gave the numbers information proved that. Out of only that many Model 1886's made, and the number of 38-56 calibers made and the time that has gone by since production, including the amount of people in the U.S. alone..well it isn't like there are 300,000 of them out there like some rifles. There really arn't many out there. So thats why I was saying it is a rare rifle if you take that into consideration. I am going to go ahead and put it up on auction. Its in excellent condition and would be a very nice rifle for someone to own with thier collection. I also have 7 original rounds for it. These were rounds that were made I know as far back as approx 1930 or so cause that's when my grandfather obtaained the rifle. Mine is one of the very early ones that were made, meaning it was made before they stopped case hardening them. Anyway, thanks for all the info and help and I appreciate everyone chimming in about it.
    Good day to you all and thank you again!

    Luke
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  • MIKE WISKEY
    "To the other poster that says they have one, well mine is is excellent condition, nowhere near 10%, it rates at a very good to excellent."........THE PICTURES YOU HAVE POSTED ARE (LIKE BERT SAID) OF A 10% RIFLE, ALMOST NO ORIGINAL FINISH LEFT, RUST PITTING IN SPOTS, AND A OIL DARKENED STOCK. I ALSO BELIEVE (LIKE BERT SAID) IT IS NOWWHERE NEAR A $4000 RIFLE.
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  • Mike D.
    What Bert said is spot on. Your 1894 manufactured .38-56 is in "average" condition and, as such, shouldn't bring much more than $1600. I have two .38-56s, one made in 1890 that I gave $700. for 3 yrs ago, and a lightweight TD with 1/2 Octagon barrel that set me back a bit over 2K. My 1890 vintage standard rifle is as nice as yours and has a nearly perfect bore, as does the 1907 rifle.

    Gun show "dealers" are not usually experts on gun grading, and the person who gave you the misinformation concerning your '86 is a classic example of this. Prior to shortly after the turn of the 20th Century case hardened receivers were standard on the 1886, so that, in itself, has no bearing on the value of a particular gun. The amount of case left on the gun does make a difference, though. The photos indicate that your rifle has only trace amounts of case hardening remaining, with most "silvered out". The wood shows the usual scratches, dents and marrs associated with the hundred plus years of use. It also has darkened and possibly had varnish added during that time. If you have had many offers of $4000-5000, I suggest that you immediately take one of them up on that.
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  • Hangfire
    " heck I could not know a dang thing about all this..:) "

    Agreed..Listen to Bert..

    " well mine is is excellent condition, nowhere near 10%, it rates at a very good to excellent "

    The one in the photo's is not..Listen to Bert..

    " I just wanted to verify all the information about this rifle first "

    Can't be done if your mind's set on an inaccurate description/condition..Books don't buy guns..Listen to Rufe..

    Good luck with the auction..You'll get a good idea on value..
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by skyshadows74
    Well I certainly didn't want to raise anyone's temps here, when I meant rare, I meant, I haven't seen them ever at shows and I go all the time. Now that may beacuse I don't go to shows in El Paso, Or Dallas, Houston, and such, where this rifile can really be appreciated as a western rifle! Me saying it has to be rare, well actually the guy above made that point for me, if only 18,000 or so made 1886 rifles were actually made, and out of that they were no all 38-56 rifles, Hmm let me see, 123 years have gone by, I wonder how many have been just thrown away back in the day when they were trashed? I wonder how many have actually survived till today in good enough condidtion that you would want it, and want to shoot it, out of that number you think there are about a bit over 300 million...I would call less that 18,000 or so made, out of that a bunch of 38-55s 123 years passed and you have a pretty rare rifile on your hands. Just doing the math and all, heck I could not know a dang thing about all this..:) Enemic cartrage, have you ever seen a 38-56 slug? And the size of the cartrage? I wouldn't call that enemic, maybe of the series..but as a former sniper I would have rather had that round than any of the other calibers. That round would stay in flight a lot longer than any of those aother rounds. A good shot is a good shot.

    To the other poster that says they have one, well mine is is excellent condition, nowhere near 10%, it rates at a very good to excellent. I have already had many offer me 4 to 5k for that rifle, because of its condition and it is also a case hardended one so that makes it even more valuble. If you look it up in the actual gun blue books..;) It is worth a lot more than that..lol..Don't know why those books seem to be so unaccurate. Anyway, I didn't mean to get people upset. Please all read the post before you post please. I know I can get ammunition for it now, I don't need to be told again. I know how name 1886's were made and all the models. Don't need a history lesson, just wanted to know from some people, thier experience owning and selling a 38-56 winchester.
    Thank you and good day to you!
    Luke


    Your lack of knowledge of the topic at hand is quite apparent, and your demonstrated reading abilities could use some improvement as well.

    You came here looking for expert advice, and you unknowingly got exactly what you were looking for, but then you failed miserably to realize it. FWIW, I am Life member of the Winchester Arms Collectors Association (WACA), soon to be on the Board Of Directors of that association, a 30+ year collector of John M. Browning designed & patented Winchesters (the Model 1886 being his 2nd creation), A research volunteer at the Cody Firearms Museum (see the link after by signature line), and most importantly, I am a 35-year+ Winchester history student. If you still have doubts about my level of expertise, you might try using the search function in the upper right hand corner, and tpye my name in the search box.

    Back to the topic at hand, I very clearly stated that Winchester made 160,000 Model 1886s, and of that total number, that 18,356 were made in 35-56 W.C.F. In the world of antique Winchester collecting, a production number that is less than 500-600 is considered to be "rare"... whereas 18,000+ is considered common. In addition to the Model 1886s that were made in 38-56 W.C.F., Winchester made a few thousand more of them in that cartridge for the Model 1885 Single Shot. I am very familar with the 38-56 W.C.F. cartridge.

    Again, (and I clearly stated this in my previous post), of all the various cartridges chambered in the Model 1886, the 38-56 W.C.F. is the most anemic, and therefore it is the least desirable. For your personal edification, the Model 1886 was chambered in the following cartridges in addition to the 38-56 W.C.F., and each one of them has a greater ballistic punch than the 38-56.

    1. 38-70 W.C.F.
    2. 40-65 W.C.F.
    3. 40-70 W.C.F.
    4. 40-82 W.C.F.
    5. 45-70
    6. 45-90 W.C.F.
    7. 50-100-450
    8. 50-110 Express
    9. 33 W.C.F. (smokless powder)

    In regards to your comment quote:I wonder how many have been just thrown away back in the day when they were trashed? I wonder how many have actually survived till today in good enough condidtion that you would want it, and want to shoot it,

    You might be shocked to know how many of them have survived. While there is no way to come up with an actual survival number, Winchester firearms were prized possessions by their buyers and owners, and they have survived in very high percentages (est. to be at or near 75%). In the past 30-years or so, the collector value of the Model 1886 has increased very nicely, making them even more likely to continue to survive.

    As I stated before, I have seen many hundreds of them at the gun shows that I attend in the true "western" half of the country (Oregon, Washington, Idaho, California, Arizona, Wyoming, Montanna, Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah. They are very commonly found at all of the shows, and they are bought and sold regularly for way less $$$$ than you seem to believe. As I (and others) have said, if you have someone foolish enough to give you $4000 (or more) for that rifle, you would be an even bigger fool for not taking them up on the offer in a New York Minute[:0].

    If you list it here on Gunbroker, be sure to let us know what the listing # is.
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