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J.P.Sauer 1913 questions.

Pinto Collector
I recently purchased a J.P. Sauer & Sohn. Suhl, which I have tentatively identified as a 1913 Model, Serial # 162,XXX. The pistol is in NRA Excellent condition, with 99% of the finish and no dings or marks.

It does not have the round trigger guard with two pin holes. (One holding the top of the trigger and one holding the slide lock mechanism.) This model has a more modern looking curved front to the trigger guard with a straight bottom, horizontal to the top of the slide. It does not have the front pin or slide locking device. Also, the grips appear to have an "S" over an "S" inside a vertical oval, which includes the grip screw. (Somewhat like the S&W logo.) It does not have the more common grips with the "S & S "on the top.

I just checked the GunBroker Auction site and found seven current auctions for 1913 pistols. All except one have the round trigger guard, two pins and slide lock mechanism. One has the oval/straight type trigger guard, without the pins or slide locking device. Additionally, at least three versions of the grips may be found in these seven examples.

Questions. 1. On this variation, without the trigger guard mechanism, how do you lock the slide to the rear for disassembly? 2. Does anyone have information on the generational changes to the 1913 pistol?
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Comments

10 comments

Date Votes
  • rufe-snow
    Very confusing situation with the early Sauer .32 autos. They are all identified as Model 1913's, "Old Models" in my reference.

    Due to the central location of the retaining screw in the grips, the grips appear to be interchangeable.

    My WAG is that this was a series of engineering changes made by the Sauer factory on their basic .32 Auto. With the one without the slide lock being the earliest version. For whatever reason Sauer didn't revise the identification of the basic Model.
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  • 1KYDSTR
    Hey R-S, and Pinto Collector...the earliest version of the J.P. Sauer and Son 1913 has the secondary safety (push button)on the left side of the frame just behind the trigger. Mine is serial numbered in the 1200's, and is considered a type 1, english export version. These are by far the hardest to find and in top condition supposedly fetch near $2000 (mine is down the food chain condition-wise from there, but still a real coup for a hack collector like myself...plus I paid $200 for it!). They started, as you said , to get really hairy to identify after the second variation, and then further confusing when the 1930 versions started being made. There are so many variations it is hard to give a lineage, and the Norwegian police versions make it REAL scary. Jim Cate is/was the expert on these and once headed the J.P. Sauer and son collectors guild; he helped me identify mine years ago. The best guide I found was, I believe, the Standard Catalog of Military Firearms from the mid 90's. They are beautifully made guns, and BOY do I reccomend you NOT take them apart. Mine is currently in pieces awaiting the time it will take to get the sub-frame reinserted and the trigger mounted slide retention spring remade. Should be doable, just have too many reloading and smithing projects to tackle.

    Really sounds like a Behorden model to me, but my books are packed away for the house sale so I can't get the serial number range for you.

    As for dissasembly...the early guns (type 1's) had a small hole in the rear of the cocking knob that when depressed, allowed the rear section to be screwed off of the gun. These are striker fired guns with an internal bolt, not a slide removal process, per se. The next versions use the rear sight as the lock for the screw off bolt assembly...merely lifting the sight will allow you to screw the back of the slide off. Dissasembly beyond removing the bolt and slide is, as I mentioned, not for the faint of heart. Drop me a line if this explanation is inadequate of confusing. Best of luck.
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  • DRGM
    Hi Pinto Collector,

    what you have is a model 26, which was made in the SN range 160xxx to 171xxx approximately. This model 26, what is a follow up of the model 1913, often is referred to as a model 1913, 4th variation. But it is a model of its own and was referred to by J. P. Sauer as a model 26 or Export model.

    1KYDSTR,

    congratulations for your 1st variation with English export legend. What patent date is mentioned there? "May 20, 1912" or "March 29, 1913" ? There are two versions of the patent date known to exist.

    Regards

    Martin
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  • Pinto Collector
    Thanks to rufe-snow, 1KYBSTR & DRGM for your responses.

    I agree with rufe-snow that the grips are interchangeable. The grip screw simple rotates ninety degrees to allow the metal retaining tab (on the back of the grip panel) to clear the frame. The grips are very interesting, as it had to cost a tone of money to create so many. Does anyone know how many variations of the grip there are?

    1KYDSTR mentioned the "secondary safety". Mine has that, but does not have the front pin in the trigger guard or the slide locking device that pin held in. Does anyone know how to lock the slide to the rear?

    DRGM mentioned it is a Model 26 (also known as a Model 1913, 4th variation). Can anyone refer me to a document on this?

    Again, thanks to all who have taken the time to read and respond to my question.

    Ray Reynolds
    "Pinto Collector"
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  • DRGM
    quote:Originally posted by Pinto Collector

    1KYDSTR mentioned the "secondary safety". Mine has that, but does not have the front pin in the trigger guard or the slide locking device that pin held in. Does anyone know how to lock the slide to the rear?


    Ray,

    no, your model 26 does not have the "secondary safety" mentioned by 1KYDSTR. This safty which can be found only on the first 9,000 items of the model 1913 is a little blank push button below the safety lever.

    Yours has the so called "Zusatzsicherung" (additionally safety) acting as a "back up" on the trigger bar. This is a small oblique spring under the safety lever.

    The safety lever on the model 26 also acts as the hold open. Pull back the slide and push up the safety lever and it will hold the slide. There is a corresponding notch on the underside of the slide.

    Grip variations: there are four pattern of the model 1913 and 26. All are equipped with the 90A? turnable locking bar on the back. Please note: to unscrew the right grip it is necessary to turn the scre clockwise, not counter clockwise!

    Regards

    Martin
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  • iwannausername
    Check in the wanted forums for a user "HorstHeld" (or similar) - he has lots of these older pistols, could probably point you in the correct direction
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  • 1KYDSTR
    DGRM...the box with all the parts is at my Dad's house along with a lot of the rest of my collection, but I DO remember fairly clearly that it has the 1912 patent date on it...it seemed really odd to me in that it was identified as a model 1913 Sauer in the books I used at the time. I originally bought it without the magazine, but found a guy in Washington state that made me 2 correct mags that worked correctly. The reason behind the dissasembly was that it had an old reblue and I wanted to re-rust blue it correctly. It shot well and was astonishingly accurate at 10 yards.

    I understand these were often bought by German and Austrian officers during WWI , but could find nothing (Imperial Army proofs etc..) to support that claim on mine. The bakelite (or Gutta Percha?) grips are a little trashed, but the swing bar in the back of each performs correctly.

    I marvel at the overall quality on such a diminutive little pistol. Unless it is of a larger caliber, most martial pistols (excepting the gorgeous 1903 Browning Colt) were percieved as an afterthought. So much intricate engineering and machining in that little Sauer .32! I have seen many later examples of the gun and see an enormous difference in quality of manufacture...they really did the early guns up nicely! Am I to assume the early guns were almost all commercial? That might explain a few things as regards the precise fitting and difficulty I had reinserting the sub-frame...definately not a field repairable weapon!
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  • DRGM
    Hi 1KYDSTR,

    Thanks for telling me, that the patent date is the 1912 one.

    Regarding your questions: the first variation (SN 1 to 9,000 app.), having the odd magazine safety with the push button (like yours) never was introduced officially in the WWI German Army. The second variation (without the button) was used officially, what can be detected by a tiny marking crown/Q (Q in Gothic) on the right side of the frame next to the crown/N proof. These with Imperial acceptance can be found in the SN range 49,000 to 85,000 approximately. Some are known with SN lower 50,000 having German regimental markings, but no c/Q acceptance marking.

    Grips: they are made of hard rubber.

    Yes, all (!) early ones (variation 1) are commercial, the Imperial German Army did not accepted them because of the odd magazine safety.

    Regards

    Martin
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  • 1KYDSTR
    Thank you Martin. I suspected this one was sent to the states and was not a bring back from WWI. I am concentrating my collection on WWI era rifles at this point as the centenial is coming up, and will likely reassemble the 1913 and sell it. Cool as it is, and certainly unique, I have little interest in most pistols (I like my early 1911 though, and will keep that!) and will divest myself of those. Please keep coming back to the forum...your knowledge of these guns is formidable and certainly appreciated by those of us who have read with interest your fine posts!
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  • DRGM
    quote:Originally posted by 1KYDSTR
    I suspected this one was sent to the states and was not a bring back from WWI.

    Hi 1KYDSTR,

    yes, you are right: your's isn't a WWI (or WWII) bring back. The 1913s having an English legend on top:

    J.P. SAUER & SON, SUHL, PRUSSIA

    and a US style patent indication on the left side of the slide:

    ?_oSAUER?_TS PATENT?__ PAT?_TD May 20. 1912.

    or

    ?_oSAUER?_TS PATENT?__ PAT?_TD MARCH 29. 1913.

    all were exported to the USA before the outbreak of WWI.


    When you decide to sell it, please give me a note. I'd be interested as those with English slide legend are impossible to find here in Europe.

    Best regards

    Martin
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