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FFL Buyer Requirement.

HistoricWheels
I am selling this Carbine on GunBroler.com: Auction # 126233011

I just received this email from a potiential bidder:


"hello... i just wanted to check with you before bidding, are you OK with shipping the rifle directly to me in los angeles? i'm not an FFL but this rifle being over 50 yrs old does not have to go through a dealer as long as it is sold between 2 adult california residents, it can be sold directly to me. let me know. thanks."

Is this correct?? Please respond to my email: VintageCarsFun@aol.com

Thanks, Dave
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Comments

10 comments

Date Votes
  • rufe-snow
    http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=126233011





    My understanding of the 50 year rule is that it applies to holders of Curio and Relic firearms licenses only. If he doesn't have one of these 03 FFL licenses, that are issued by the feds? I don't see how he would be legally qualified to receive the carbine being directly shipped to him. It's also customary when buying a Curio and Relic firearm, to send a photo copy of the license to the seller. This is to establish your legal right to purchase and receive, the Curio and Relic firearm.
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  • Spider7115
    As both the seller and the buyer are in the same state (California), I believe the question is to whether or not the seller can ship a longarm directly to a buyer. You would have to check your individual state laws.
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  • tsr1965
    As I understand it, FEDERAL laws say, that even though you both live in the same state, unless it is done face to face, it has to go thru an FFL. The fellow bringing it up to send it directly to him should raise a red flag. I would err on the side of safety. Who knows what the part on the other end is? might even be the ATF setting you up, just waiting for you to send it to an individual.

    Just because it is over 50 years old, does not make it a C&R eligible weapon either. If it is on the C&R list it is, but there are some requirements that have to be met also.

    Best
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  • 11b6r
    NO. As the man said, the 50 yr age relates to Curio & Relic status, and only applies to a C&R FFL holder. IF he sends you a copy of a C&R FFL, after you verify with the ATF, you can ship directly. Otherwise, I would not. As TSR said, you are NOT doing a face-to-face. And 50 yrs does not make an antique- being made before 1899 makes an antique gun.
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  • fordsix
    los angles!! i would not
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  • nmyers
    The fellas are a little confused, so that may make it difficult to pick out the right answers.

    First, your gun is a C&R. It was made during WW2. All guns > 50 years old in original configuration are C&R's. Period.

    Second, you can sell a gun directly to another resident of your own state, either face-to-face or by shipping, STATE & LOCAL LAW PERMITTING. Since the bidder lives in LA Co & LA Municipality, that makes any sale risky to you from a legal standpoint. Especially since your mags hold > 10 rounds. Plus, in a mail transaction, how are you going to verify WHO a nonlicensed buyer is? A photocopy of his doctored drivers license?

    My advice is that you should respond, "Sorry, I will only transfer to a C&R or FFL licensee."

    Neal
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  • EOD Guy
    It would be perfectly legal under both Federal and California law. Whether it would be prudent is your decision.

    California law allows the direct transfer of C&R rifles and shotuns that are over 50 years old as long as the receiving party is leagally able to possess firearms. No dealer involvement is required and neither party needs to have a C&R FFL.

    The applicable part of the California Penal Code is PC 12078(t)(2).

    You may not transfer a magazine with a capacity greater than 10 rounds. That's a separate matter under California law.
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  • PEZHEAD265
    Even if you do it face to face how do you know if he is legal to own a gun?Age can be seen but how do you know if he is a felon or not?That gun can only be sold with a 10 rd mag unless he is a LEO or have a FFL for hi cap mags.
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  • HistoricWheels
    I want to thank all of you who responded to my question.

    By your answeres, this Carbine will ONLY be shipped to a licensed FFL dealer!

    Cheers, Dave
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  • dfletcher
    Now that is a pretty rifle - and I'm only about 30 miles away, right? Hmmm.

    Just daydreaming a bit, already have an early Inland. But I live in CA, have a C & R FFL & COE. For those outside CA, the COE is state issued & allows us to dispense with the usual 10 day wait on all C & R eligible guns.

    I'm pretty much on board with EOD on the specifics of this one.

    Regarding long guns only, CA goes by the federal C & R listing HOWEVER the gun must also be greater than 50 years old to not go through an FFL dealer and the deal must be between two unlicensed individuals.

    For example, if an unlicensed individual (meaning a person without a dealer FFL) goes to a gun store to buy an M1 Carbine from a dealer, he must do the 10 day wait & DROS. If he buys that same gun from an unlicensed (no dealer FFL) individual, it's cash & carry. The whole "how do you know whether or not he's a bad guy" isn't an issue, any more than it is in another state that allows private sales between unlicensed individuals for modern guns. There is a very low standard of individual responsibility for checking the person out.

    A C & R eligible long gun that is fewer than 50 years old - such as a Pre 64 Winchester made in 1962 for example or an Ishapore 7.62 - even though federally a C & R and in CA a C & R, because they are fewer than 50 years old must go through an FFL dealer.

    So the buyer is right on about no need for an FFL if the sale takes place between two unlicensed, CA residents in a face to face transaction. But I do not know if doing the deal through the mail would qualify as "face to face" nor if you can meet even a minimal interpretation of responsibility with the person being not prohibited from owning a gun. As you know, sending the gun to a dealer is probably going to cost him an extra $100.00 or so and a 10 day wait unless he has a C & R and COE.

    BTW, if any of the mags are +10 capacity they can not be sold to him intact. If he has his own prebans the +10s could be disassembled and sold as rebuild kits to replace any of his own that are damaged. That is perfectly legal in CA.

    I just went through a similar transaction but having the C & R/COE didn't have to wait & paid only $45.00 for the transfer, no DROS needed.

    Depending on where everyone lives, a drive might be cheaper than mailing and if you're each not licensed a FTF sale can be done.

    Who says CA gun laws don't suck, right? [;)]
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