C&R shipping
The ATF site only says handguns can be shipped "licensee to licensee" interstate via USPS, says nothing about what class license. So, anyone know if a handgun can be shipped C&R FFL to C&R FFL via USPS?
note: not asking about postal regulations, already know them. Asking about legality of shipment, which Postmaster is prohibited from determining.
note: not asking about postal regulations, already know them. Asking about legality of shipment, which Postmaster is prohibited from determining.
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Can a curio & relic be shipped to an storefront FFL w/o a C&R License? I sold a C&R to an out of state buyer & the FFL that received it, says he needs an FFL from me. Is this correct? 0 -
The Postal Regulations use the words "Federal Firearms Dealer" only as permissible to use USPS for shipping handguns. There is no mention of any other class of BATF licensee. I didn't see any wiggle room; I myself would have liked to ship as a C&R licensee, but I don't believe I can legally do so. 0 -
A special form is required to ship a handgun from the post office.
By signing the form you are stating you are either a manufacturer of dealer in firearms. A person with a C&R is neither so they cannot ship via USPS. I would be happy to email you a copy of the form if you are interested0 -
They also say to "dealer" only, but I've received C&R handguns via USPS. Once again, I'm asking about the ATF regulations, not the postal regs. I'm familiar with the postal regulation provisions requiring the affadavit. Section 11.4 specifically prohibits a Postmaster from determining the legality of a shipment.
Does anyone have any experience/knowledge about ATF regs? You can't submit an email, I'd have to send a written inquiry and wait for a written reply...which I'll do, I just want anyone with firsthand experience to speak up.0 -
ATF regs please. 0 -
There are no atf regs. ATF doesn't care how you ship. It is a violation of Federal law for you to ship a prohibited item ie handgun ifyou are not a dealer. If you get caught, you won't like the consequenses. Additionally if the gun is lost or damaged you won't collect as it was an ilegal shipment. Lots of people break the law by shipping handguns and ammo via USPS. If you get caught you'll pay lawyer's fees fines and might have a meeting with Bubba the dominate horny cell mate 0 -
Call the firearms branch in Morgantown WV. It IS in the ATF Regs, but I am not at home right now, and cannot access the manual. ATF permits DEALERS and MANUFACTURERS to MAIL handguns. When they wrote the reg (I am told) they accidentally left off COLLECTORS and IMPORTERS. And yes, I have rec'd C&R handguns by mail- but it is NOT legal- by ATF or the Domestic Mail Manual- for anyone but a Dealer or Manufacturer to do so. I wish it was not that way. 0 -
Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P5300.4) page 178, B7.
Neal
EDIT: Familyguy, even if ATF were to clarify the paragraph by stating "collectors, manufacturers, dealers, & distributors", that wouldn't do us any good. Their position would still be that USPS has the authority to restrict what items they ship, & we have to follow USPS regs. Arrest by the Postal Inspectors will be no less devastating than arrest by the fellas with the bulges in the cheap suits.0 -
11b6r - thanks, I'll give that branch a call first thing next week.
nmyers - thanks for the publication info. It was very useful. Unfortunately, it uses the same vague 'licensee' language. Page 182 (section on Collectors) even states that collectors have no additional rights compared to nonlicensee's under the 1968 GCA except with regard to C&R transactions. Refers to C&R's as licensees, but doesn't address interstate handgun shipping via USPS. All the sections I read say licensee=yes, nonlicensee=no without clarifying.
golferboy426 - you said:
"There are no atf regs. ATF doesn't care how you ship. It is a violation of Federal law for you to ship a prohibited item ie handgun ifyou are not a dealer."
First, there are plenty of regs. Look up the publication nmyers referenced.
Second, they DO care how you ship, or I doubt that they would even address it in their regulations.
As for violating federal law, are you referring to USPS? Perfectly legal for me to ship via contract carrier.0 -
I was unclear. By the ATF " not caring" I meant they abdicate to the USPS. WITHOUT A DOUBT a C&R CANNOT ship a handgun via the US mail. Here 's a link from the ATF site that clearly states it. C&R licensees are NOT DEALERS
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/18usc_sect1715.pdf0 -
gb - thanks for the link. That is definitely more clear than any ATF publication.
Not to nitpick, just to clarify: 18 USC is federal law, neither postal nor ATF regulations. ATF does not 'abdicate' any legal issues, just regulations such as the forms and declarations you mentioned before.
For example, if I were to ship it and jump through the hoops required by USPS, there's nothing they can do except call in the Postal Inspection Service or ATF, who would likely prosecute under the 18 USC you quoted.
Either way, that is the definitive answer I was looking for...thank you.0 -
Originally posted by familyguy
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For example, if I were to ship it and jump through the hoops required by USPS,
There are no hoops you could jump thru to ship it. You are not a dealer0 -
If your bound and determined to create problems for yourself, go to it. It's no skin off us. Chances are when you call the BATF, they aren't going to give you the the absolute horses mouth answer your looking for.
I wouldn't do any shipping anyway on the basis of a phone conversation, with some government employee, who probably doesn't know the difference between their rectum and a hole in the ground.
If they authorize you to ship handguns through the U.S.P.S., using your FFL 03 license. Get a valid determination letter from them, not just a verbal authorization over the phone.0 -
Rufe - already said I'd write, never said I'd do anything contrary to law. Please read what I write before commenting or putting words in my mouth. Moot point with the last link provided by golfer.
gb - again, not the point.
seems to be a pattern here...0 -
so what is the point? No matter what you try or think, or hear verbally from anyone, you cannot legally ship a handgun usps unless you are are dealer and have the appropriate dealer's license. There are no loopholes 0 -
My point is that your link provided a legal basis for that answer. Did you actually read what I wrote? " that is the definitive answer I was looking for...thank you."
The 'dissecting' of the answer was to clarify the legal as opposed to regulatory and rule-making issues. Never said there was a loophole, just ambiguity. As well, I pointed out the fallacies and inaccuracies in some of the statements made. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.0
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