WWII Colt 1911A1 value question
Hello all,
I purcahsed what was advertised as a 1942 Colt 1911A1 in nearly new condition. It was purcashed from Surf City Firearms via their classified on www.{elsewhere}. I paid $2,950.00 for it, but now I'm questioning it's actual value. I recently listed this gun for sale on GB & was notified by a 1911 enthusiast that something was wrong. My gun has a serial that correctly puts it as being made in 1942, but on the right side it has the "crossed-cannons" proof mark. I was told by this individual that they didn't start marking these guns with that proof until serial number 830,000 - 840,000. My gun is serial number 787,280.
I'm attaching pictures because I really do not know what I have. I did some research on the owner of Surf City Firearms & it seems that he (David Buehn) has a reputation for making forgeries (also known as, "humping" collectibles). I cannot tell what if anything is real or not. I'm hoping someone here will have enough knowledge to definitively say one way or the other. Please let me know whatever you can as far as what (if anything) appears to be authentic.
Thanks in advance, Andy
I purcahsed what was advertised as a 1942 Colt 1911A1 in nearly new condition. It was purcashed from Surf City Firearms via their classified on www.{elsewhere}. I paid $2,950.00 for it, but now I'm questioning it's actual value. I recently listed this gun for sale on GB & was notified by a 1911 enthusiast that something was wrong. My gun has a serial that correctly puts it as being made in 1942, but on the right side it has the "crossed-cannons" proof mark. I was told by this individual that they didn't start marking these guns with that proof until serial number 830,000 - 840,000. My gun is serial number 787,280.
I'm attaching pictures because I really do not know what I have. I did some research on the owner of Surf City Firearms & it seems that he (David Buehn) has a reputation for making forgeries (also known as, "humping" collectibles). I cannot tell what if anything is real or not. I'm hoping someone here will have enough knowledge to definitively say one way or the other. Please let me know whatever you can as far as what (if anything) appears to be authentic.
Thanks in advance, Andy
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There is not much we can do to help you, in this matter. I would review the paperwork you received from Buehn when you purchased, the pistol. If he specifically states in it, that it's a factory original Colt, with the original U.S. Ordinance markings dating to 1942, you might have legal recourse in this matter.
My understanding by reading a lot of the posts on John Stimpsons, High Standard site. That lots of folks have had problems with Buehn over the years, "improving", collectible handguns, that were supposedly used by the U.S. military.0 -
I hurt for you, Andy.
At least you learned that there may be problems with your purchase while there is still time to get your money back. (And, they WILL give you a refund if you are not happy.)
The information about the date for beginning the ordnance seal on Colts comes from "Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of 1911 and 1911A1" by Charles W. Clawson. Although the original edition "the big book" is out of print, the abbreviated 3rd edition is available for < $50 & you probably don't want to spend that kind of money on a service pistol without a copy in your library.
It's difficult to determine alterations without the gun in hand. I always look first at the inspectors initials with a 10x magnifier, like a jewelers loupe; you should be able to see some burnishing (bare metal) inside the letters, since they were struck after finishing. I would expect the Colt barrel to have a small G on the bottom. You may want to see if you can photograph the grip screw bushing stake marks in focus.
I suggest you post this on a more specialized forum. The guys who frequent the 1911/1911A1 forum on the Jouster Shooting Page at:
http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=73
will be glad to discuss your gun with you; some may even be familiar with that particular one. You may want to take a photo of the rear of the slide under the firing pin stop, where the serial number should match that of the frame.
Neal0 -
If it has not been "touched-up" it is beautiful and amazing.
DOUG0 -
Hello per Clawson's Big Book your pistol was shipped June 10 1942 to Springfield the VP proof with m over it on left side trigger guard looks correct as well as the 40 on the right side is correct for 1942 the Pony on the slide looks very light but may be the way it was stamped originally and the W.B. inside the box looks correct The only thing that Bothers me is the breach face of the slide looks like it has a insert bushing around the firing pin hole . I have seen this as a repair on many 1911's done during rebuild because the 1911 slide was much softer then the 1911A1 slides I have never seen this on a 1911A1 slide. Now the main thing to consider is are these marks original or have they been enhanced . You can BUY all stamps on line to enhance washed out markings and the sad fact is the higher price /value an item gets the more likely someone will take the time and money to enhance a item. I like to know the history of ownership ofan item if possible and lie to buy direct from owner the More hands it goes trough the less I like it. Some dealers I trust 100 % and others I am suspect of I hope that your pistol is what it appears to be . BTW great pictures as good as I have seen and as close to having gun in my hands to look at. Cheers Karl 0 -
trust me on this, i am NOT a 1911 expert, just a guy who has a Colt 1911A1 that i bought from a WWII B-17 Bombadier/Navigator, it was as new as one will ever find in a "used" 1911, he qualified with it and never fired the gun after that, i bought the gun from him in 1977 for $175.00 because his wife did not want the grandkids to find it
my S/N is 16531XX, he told me it was issued to him in 1944, i just pulled it from the safe and here is what i found different..., i realize there is two years difference, so here it is:
* where yours is stamped "WB" mine is "G.H.D.", vertically
* the crossed cannons is very lightly stamped
* where yours is stamped "40" mine is "41"
* the prancing Colt is also lightly stamped
* the firing pin bushing is highly suspect never saw one that way, and being on a U.S.Navy pistol team for a couple years i saw and inspected many 1911s
the stippling is just a bit too deep, the wide hammer spur did not come out till the later pistols were produced, personally i believe this 1911 has been "enhanced" and refinished.., the interior is just too pristine for my liking, sorry my friend but this gun just looks too "pretty" to be what it was advertised as, and $2950.00 is a rip off in my OPINION
get your money back !!!0 -
I really don't see any problem with the parts or markings on Andy's gun. They are all appropriate for an early 1942 Colt. The tool steel recoil plate was installed on all 1911A1 slides from 1935 to the end of WW2 production.
I DO have a problem with the finish of his gun. It is a coarse, sparkly finish I have never seen on an original finish gun. Note the finish on this original 1943 Colt:
It is much smoother, almost thinner. If you look closely at the flat part of the slide on this one, you can see faint horizontal polishing marks. Also, look at the VP proof on trigger guard; since this (& the inspectors number on the other side) was applied after finishing, it has been "burnished" (which means the bare metal shows through the finish.) This should also be seen in the WB stamp. I can't see any burnishing in these areas on Andy's guns, which is why he needs to look closely with a magnifying glass to be sure. Also, the box is a reproduction.
But, the bottom line is, I agree with USN Airdale; Andy should return the gun.
Neal0 -
Wow, I didn't expect all the replies so soon. Sorry to reply so late. Thank you guys very much for your input. My main concern was the crossed cannons on the right of the gun. I was worried about this because supposedly my serial number puts my gun before they started using this mark. Unfortunately, I purchased this gun over 2 years ago. They even had a 7 day inspection period. I went back & re-read the item description for the other '41 Colt that Surf City had listed on www.{elsewhere}. Seems that they really covered their rears. The description said, "99% prk finish, 1 contract magazine & a numbered kraft box" (paraphrased). So, they did NOT claim it to be all original. I was simply fooled & taken for a fool. I have learned a lot since then. At this point, the only thing I can see to do is just keep it & shoot it. It is a very fine firearm, I just hate that it's not what I bought it to be. That is, a collector's item I could pass down through my family which would only grow in value.
Thank you guys again, I appreciate everything. Andy0 -
I've dealt with that guy too, but I was lucky and did not lose much. Speaking from experience, lodge a complaint with the guy, and he will probably tell you that you can exchange it for any item that he has for an equal or higher value, paying the difference on the latter, but I'm not sure that he can be trusted to do that should you find a comparable piece and decide to take him up on it, since I tried to do that and the items I liked had always been sold. Actually, I bought a piece that was scoped, and the Winchester A-5 scope went up considerably in value right after I dealt with him. 0 -
agree with most of what's been said already. especially about it being refinished. the slide has been re-stamped and errors were made in both letters and numbers..
and, as mentioned already, the actual finish is unlike any I've seen before(for that gun).
I have some "collectibles" that i had refinished just because i like the way they look fresh vs used. ruined the collectors value, but I'm happy with them.
that's the bottom line.
just my 2c
tom0
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