C&R
Is it hard to get a C&R permit?
Who do I contact?
What do I do?
Who do I contact?
What do I do?
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I'm selling an old Martini (over 50 years old) with a new .222 Remington barrel. Prospective buyers are telling me it's a C&R. Is it? If you say "yes", please post an ATF reference.
Thanks0 -
The firearm has to be over 50 years old, or on this list.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm0 -
To add just a bit to Rufe's answer (which is correct)- either on the list, or THAT gun is 50 or older. A Marlin 39A can be 50 yrs old (C&R) or 49 yrs old (Non C&R). Next year, the 49 yr old turns 50, and becomes C&R. Guns should be in their original configuration, and just a reciever or barrel & receiver are not C&R- argument is that in that shape, does not have collector's value. 0 -
There are also quite a few C & R eligible guns that are fewer than 50 years old. Smith 53, 2nd generation Colt SAA, Ishapore SMLEs. Actually quite a few under 50 C & Rs out there.
With respect to C & R eligible guns that cover an extended manufacturing period - using a Colt Officers Model Match (1953 to 1969) for example - it is my understanding that a 1965 produced gun is C & R eligible just as well as a 1955 produced gun. That is, ATF has designated the model or series as C & R, not just a +50 year old version of the gun. A 1963 made "pre 64" Winchester 94 is just as much a C & R as a 1905 made "pre 64" Winchester 94. If ATF chooses to limit or provide a cut off point, they'll specifically designate a cut off with serial numbers.
If anyone has more specific info - or can verify the above - it would be appreciated I'm sure.0 -
D- I wish I could agree, but I don't. Yes, there are several firearms less than 50 yrs old that ARE C&Rs- all Colt Woodsman's, all Winchester 88.s ect. However, on the "50 yrs or older"- the firearm in question must have been manufactured 50 yrs or more ago- not just the model. (Reason I hang onto the table for Marlin SN prefixes, and Remington barrel codes. Their argument is that a 50 yr old Marlin may be a collectable, a run-of-the-mill NEW Marlin is NOT. C&P from 27 CFR 478.11:
Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to
collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with
firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.
To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of
the following categories:
(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the
current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal,
State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics
of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their
monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or
because of their association with some historical figure, period, or
event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this
category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence
that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or
that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial
channels is substantially less.0 -
Gentlemen,
This is the "money" phrase from the ATF's formal description:
quote:
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
So per the ATF, even recent manufacture (eg two year old) guns *could* theoretically qualify as C&R guns so long as they have substantial historical or collectors value.
As a hypothetical example, Saddam Hussein's personal Makarov pistol would probably qualify, even if it were manufactured in the late 1980s, assuming you had provenance to prove it.
I would personally pay substantially more than the going rate for an ordinary Makarov for that particular pistol, as I would imagine so would many other collectors. So by the ATF's description, the inflated price would qualify that particular gun as a C&R regardless of its actual manufacture date.
The key factor, again, is that the gun has to be worth considerably more than similar ones by dint of its historical or collector's interest.
As another example, the Perazzi shotgun Dick Cheney shot his friend with, would easily qualify, given the historical implications of that event, even if that gun were manufactured in 2003! In fact, pretty much ANY gun owned/used by a current or former US President would probably qualify.
Being grim, any of the guns used in the Columbine shooting would probably qualify, for the same reasons.
As a real-world examiple, for a long time, there was a Dan Wesson revolver on the auction site (might still be there) that was apparently used in some high-profile homicides in CA years ago. Again, pretty grim, but a gun like that *could* be a C&R so long as its true market value is much higher than a similar gun without the same provenance.
And the list of possible examples goes on.
The other thing is that bit about any gun being a C&R so long as the curator of a firearms museum says it is. By that criteria, any gun that was sufficiently interesting (for whatever reason) *COULD* qualify, so long as you can find some ACTUAL curator willing to go on record to claim your gun is a curio.
In practice, this is probably a hard route to go, but I bet it could be done with rare/weird enough guns, or any tied to historical events that didn't necessarily have increased collectors value for that reason.
For example, a Vietnam war era-issued 1911 pistol *might* qualify as a curio, even if it wasn't necessarily worth more than an ordinary 1911, or manufactured more than 50 years ago, so long as a Museum curator said it was one.
A recently manufactured prototype pistol of a production gun with a low serial number might qualify, again, even if the gun itself isn't necessarily worth more than a similar production one.
Etc.
EDIT: If you look at the actual C&R list, there are not only many guns on there less than 50 years old, there are many that are substantially less old:
Also, many of the individual C&R guns on the list are identified by *individual* serial number. Those are undoubtedly guns that the ATF has reviewed and determined that they meet the above criteria of having historical/collectors value, have been approved by curators, etc.
1995: Smith & Wesson Collector's Association, 25th Anniversary Commemorative revolver 1970-1995, Model 29, .44 Magnum caliber, S/Ns SWC 0001 through SWC 0184.
1976: Colt , Single Action Army (2nd Generation) revolvers, having S/Ns from 0001SA to 82000SA, all calibers, made between 1956 and 1976.
1978: Albanian SKS semiautomatic rifles, caliber 7.62 x 39, manufactured in Albania from 1964 to 1978.
1992: Yugoslavian manufactured rifles M59 and M59/66, 7.62 x 39 mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947-1992.
1985: High Standard, Lee Jurras, or AMT from 1969 to 1985.
1986: Smith & Wesson Model 66 Distinguished Combat Magnum, caliber .357 magnum revolver, marked with the Texas Sheriff's Association badge and "TEXAS LAWMAN" on the right side of the frame, commemorating 150 years of law enforcement in Texas 1836-1986.
Etc. . .0 -
I agree on the "50 plus year" old requirement of course.
I've gone through only one ATF inspection, it was after I bought one of my Colt OMs using my C & R. Acording to serial number it was not a +50 year old gun. Whether the agent made a mistake or not - I wasn't going to ask at the time.
Using the Marlin 39 as an example, the only 39A I see listed as C & R eligible are their anniversary models. The C & R listing does not show the Marlin 39A specifically, so the default would be as you said whether the gun is over 50 years old.
If the Marlin was listed, as in "Marlin 39A, all production models" I would interpret that to mean all 39As from 1897 to now regardless of age. ATF can also add specifics such as "Marlin 39A, Ser # 1 to 999999" and if serial number 999995 was manufactured in 1986 then all Marlins within that range, whether under or over 50 would be C & Rs.
So I think there is the general rule of +50 = C & R eligible, then there are specific listings, which include not only Charles Lindbergh's revolver but series of guns which happen to cross from over 50 to less than 50 years old. Where ATF has listed make, model and year of manufacture specifically I think the intent is to include them as C & R eligible.0 -
Curator of a museum seems fairly straightforward, but I wonder - what is the process and who decides C & R status on the more common yet no longer produced guns? For example, somehow the Smith 53 is a C & R, yet SA only Smith Model 14s are not and Smith Model 58s are not. The Colt OM 1953 to 1969 is, but the Colt OM Trooper 1953 to 1969 is not. The Smith Model 52-1 is, none of the Coonans are. Does someone have to "push" a model or gun & get ATF to go along? Or does ATF do some sort of review and give a thumbs up or down on their own? 0 -
quote:Or does ATF do some sort of review
Fletch- come on, now! You're making me laugh!
Actually, someone files a request for determination, along with some supporting documentation of rarity, uniqueness, historical significance of a given weapon or model of weapon. Like the 45 that belonged to the President of Cuba, etc (yeah, that one IS on the list)0 -
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
quote:Or does ATF do some sort of review
Fletch- come on, now! You're making me laugh!
Actually, someone files a request for determination, along with some supporting documentation of rarity, uniqueness, historical significance of a given weapon or model of weapon. Like the 45 that belonged to the President of Cuba, etc (yeah, that one IS on the list)
Were I the sensitive type I'd think you're saying there is such a thing as a stupid question. [V]
I'm not asking about individual guns, one of a kind types. I'm pretty sure Bautista's pistola or TR's rifle ranks high and are one of a kind. But how did the 2nd Gen Colt SAAa get on there? Or the cheap as heck Ishapore SMLEs? Both are under 50 years old. There are many other examples. Someone somewhere went to someone and got that done, I'm just interested in the mechanics of that process.0 -
Colt single actions Have been collector items for as long as I can remember when the second generation came out they were looked down upon by true colt collectors then when the third Gen came out the second generation became collector items and now even the third generation and so called 4th Gen I predict will be on the list in a fey years. I think the fact that if an Item $$ value rise is beyond a certain % then it is considered a collector item . Maybe the one good thing That OBAMA being elected will do is make all guns go up in value and all will be put on the C&R list. [}:)][:o)] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
To add just a bit to Rufe's answer (which is correct)- either on the list, or THAT gun is 50 or older. A Marlin 39A can be 50 yrs old (C&R) or 49 yrs old (Non C&R). Next year, the 49 yr old turns 50, and becomes C&R. Guns should be in their original configuration, and just a reciever or barrel & receiver are not C&R- argument is that in that shape, does not have collector's value.
I thought only military guns had to be in their original configuration. Other only had to be on the list or 50 years old or older.0
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