Help with ID of a Winnie R & L?
Friend of mine at work was telling me about an old autoloader he had bought back in the 70's from another guy at work. He told me he had been told it was pretty rare, I haven't seen the gun- but I can't find out anything on the Model he gave me......
Winchester Model R & L
12ga SemiAuto
SN 759##
he says that is the marking on the gun and thinks it has poly chokes
Thanks in advance again
b
Winchester Model R & L
12ga SemiAuto
SN 759##
he says that is the marking on the gun and thinks it has poly chokes
Thanks in advance again
b
0
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Show us a pic 0 -
I haven't even seen the gun, just going off of what he said was stamped on it....... Was hoping someone had a clue on the R & L marking to what actual Model it might be ...... to save me an hour drive to his house to look at it. 0 -
Never heard of a Winchester marked "R & L", but Winchester's first semi-automatic shotgun (the Model 1911) was referred to as a "S.L." (self-loading).
Winchester's first auto-loading shotgun was the Model 1911 S.L.(1911 - 1925), followed by the Model 40 (1940-1941), then the Model 50 (1954 - 1961) and finally the Model 59 (1959 - 1965).
There have been several newer models made, starting with the Model 1400 in 1964.0 -
Bert, thank you my friend! He just needed something to point him in the right direction..... It was stamped " MOD 11 SL "
I gave him my camera to take some pics when he went home for lunch. Good thing he is an estimator in a machine shop, not a professional photographer, but I love the wood on it. Pretty marred up on the barrel at the fore arm, and somebody added the ( I think Cutts Choke ) that I am sure hurts the value. He isn't looking to sell, but just a ballpark and a good DOM. He couldn't believe the gun was older than he was, said he bought it in 1966 for $50 and got 12 boxes of shells with it from a drafter that needed some cash........... I need to walk into a deal like that.....
[img]http://usera.ImageCave.com/burdz19/Model 1911 002.JPG[/img]
[img]http://usera.ImageCave.com/burdz19/Model 1911 008.JPG[/img]
[img]http://usera.ImageCave.com/burdz19/Model 1911 010.JPG[/img]
[img]http://usera.ImageCave.com/burdz19/Model 1911 009.JPG[/img]
[img]http://usera.ImageCave.com/burdz19/Model 1911 001.JPG[/img]0 -
These guns were called "the widowmaker" and the "headbuster". This was Winchesters attempt to get around Browning patents. It was a commercial failure as the gun was dangerous(you load it by racking the barrel back, which if the gun discharges can kill someone)
When they broke, and they did, Winchester sent you a model 12 pump back instead. Collector value is low given the model and condition. Around here is is a 150-200 dollar gun at best.0 -
Based on the fact that it is marked "MOD 11 S.L.", that indicates that it was made after April of 1919. The serial number will give me a better idea of exactly when it was made.
The pictures tell me that neither of the stocks is factory original, nor is the Cutts Compensator (that was installed at least 20-years after the gun was made).
Based on the fact that the Model 1911/Mod 11 has never been a "collector" grade Winchester, and the fact that it has been restocked, and the fact that it can not be safely shot with any modern manufactured 12 guage shells, it unfortunately has very little intrinsic value. If he can get anything over $100 for it, he should consider himself quite lucky.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Wehrmacht_45
These guns were called "the widowmaker" and the "headbuster". This was Winchesters attempt to get around Browning patents. It was a commercial failure as the gun was dangerous(you load it by racking the barrel back, which if the gun discharges can kill someone)
When they broke, and they did, Winchester sent you a model 12 pump back instead. Collector value is low given the model and condition. Around here is is a 150-200 dollar gun at best.
I disagree with at least a few of your statements.
(1) This gun was not dangerous, and it was never prone to accidently discharging when loading or unloading it... the term "Widowmaker" is a wife's tale or myth depending upon how you want to interpret it.
(2) Yes, the Model 1911/MOD 11 did break very frequently, and that is why Winchester abandoned it after 14-years of production... but Winchester never offered anyone, or sent anyone a new Model 1912/12 in its place... that is pure myth. The only instance where Winchester ever replaced one model for another model was the Model 1893 for a new Model 1897 (black powder gun for a smokeless powder gun). The Model 1911 was never recalled or replaced with a new gun.0 -
Wher and Bert Thank you both, but I really like the guy and have learned a lot from him.......... so I guess I have to lie and tell him a 1/2 truth that the gun is about 80 years and considered ...... well different........ and he should hang on to it but make sure it isn't used anymore.
And Bert? How could you tell the wood wasn't original? I have a 1919 model 12 and the finish is much darker, but even from the pictures he took I cant tell that the wood was replaced or refinished? Sorry Bert, just someone trying to learn how you could tell so easily.
The SN was 75,9## also
Thanks again,
b0 -
quote:Originally posted by burdz19
And Bert? How could you tell the wood wasn't original? I have a 1919 model 12 and the finish is much darker, but even from the pictures he took I cant tell that the wood was replaced or refinished? Sorry Bert, just someone trying to learn how you could tell so easily.
The SN was 75,9## also
Thanks again,
b
Simple... the Model 1911 was made with a laminated butt stock versus a solid piece of wood. Winchester did that because the recoil transmitted into a traditional stock quickly caused it to split and crack. The coloration of the stocks is also not correct (as you noted, the color is much different that your Model 12).0 -
Thank you Mr. Bert as always very helpful! 0
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