.30 Tokarev Combat Record?
I've been keeping a mental log of incidents where the 7.62x25 Tokarev has been used in combat, as there isn't much real information on the cartridge's effectiveness in Western circles. I've read speculations by some people here in the West who even claim that the Soviets adopted the .30 Tok in 1930 only because it would only wound people and allow them to escape to hospitals, where they could be arrested.
Most of the real incidents I've found come from Russian-language web-sites in which the cartridge isn't the focus, but general battle stories are. So far, I've found accounts of six combat-situation shootings which involved only one round. Five people were shot with TT33 Pistols, and one with a PPSh which had been blown in half and which would only fire one round at a time. Two incidents involved Russian airmen who shot and killed solitary German soldiers who approached them, two incidents involved Russian tankers who had to abandon their vehicles (one of the tankers actually shot his opponent twice, the second time was after the first shot had apparently killed him), one incident was a Russian Infantryman who used the broken submachine gun, and the sixth incident was a Russian Infantryman who shot a German tanker who was outside of his tank. The German was knocked out by the bullet, which hit him in the left lung, but he didn't die, and he regained consciousness after a few minutes.
The sum is that six shots were fired, resulting in six men down. One man survived, and one was shot a second time, to be sure he wouldn't use his Panzerfaust. This seems to be a pretty good record.
There may be a parallel here between the Tok cartridge and the .30 U.S. Carbine round. The .30 Carbine is pretty well denounced by those who have never used it in combat, and even by some who have claimed to. For the rest, there is the history of Sgt. Beauford Anderson, who was cut off, surrounded, and who fought a night-long battle alone, and whose only firearm was a .30 Carbine. In the morning, Anderson was reached by others who found that he had killed 25 enemy soldiers. Anderson was awarded the MOH for that battle. I was fortunate in being able to personally inspect Anderson's position.
Does anyone know of any other real-world information sources (not gunwriters or hearsay, but from actual experience) such as British Colonial Police sources, or others, on the effectiveness of the .30 Tokarev and .30 Mauser?
Most of the real incidents I've found come from Russian-language web-sites in which the cartridge isn't the focus, but general battle stories are. So far, I've found accounts of six combat-situation shootings which involved only one round. Five people were shot with TT33 Pistols, and one with a PPSh which had been blown in half and which would only fire one round at a time. Two incidents involved Russian airmen who shot and killed solitary German soldiers who approached them, two incidents involved Russian tankers who had to abandon their vehicles (one of the tankers actually shot his opponent twice, the second time was after the first shot had apparently killed him), one incident was a Russian Infantryman who used the broken submachine gun, and the sixth incident was a Russian Infantryman who shot a German tanker who was outside of his tank. The German was knocked out by the bullet, which hit him in the left lung, but he didn't die, and he regained consciousness after a few minutes.
The sum is that six shots were fired, resulting in six men down. One man survived, and one was shot a second time, to be sure he wouldn't use his Panzerfaust. This seems to be a pretty good record.
There may be a parallel here between the Tok cartridge and the .30 U.S. Carbine round. The .30 Carbine is pretty well denounced by those who have never used it in combat, and even by some who have claimed to. For the rest, there is the history of Sgt. Beauford Anderson, who was cut off, surrounded, and who fought a night-long battle alone, and whose only firearm was a .30 Carbine. In the morning, Anderson was reached by others who found that he had killed 25 enemy soldiers. Anderson was awarded the MOH for that battle. I was fortunate in being able to personally inspect Anderson's position.
Does anyone know of any other real-world information sources (not gunwriters or hearsay, but from actual experience) such as British Colonial Police sources, or others, on the effectiveness of the .30 Tokarev and .30 Mauser?
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Both the 7.62x25 and .30Carbine rounds are for "up close and personal" work. Since more Germans were taken out by Soviet forces in WWII than any other Allied country, and the main assault weapon of the Red Army was the PPSh with the Tok round, common sense tells one that more Germans were KIA/WIA with that weapon than any other in the Soviet small arms inventory. Not only was the Tok round respected by the Soviets who used it, but there are many photos in the archives of German soldiers armed with PPSh's...the true comment on respect. As to a personal perspective, the house in which I have lived for 25 years was built by a retired US Colonel, vet of Korea, who when I visited now my home I noticed his Carbine, two Silver Stars, Bronze Star with V, and three PH's over the mantle in the family room, surrounding a Inland Carbine. He walked with a limp and told me he was selling the house (which he loved) to escape our humid DE climate and move to Arizona. It seems that a Chinese soldier got in his trench with his PPSh and got the Col across both kneecaps, but the Col's carbine finished the job. So, one American Col had nothing to say but good things about the carbine...the Chinese soldier had nothing to say. Cerainly the carbine was no Garand, but the round was much better than the Tok, which after all is a pistol round, not a rifle round. Good shooting! 0 -
Well, Winston Churchill thought well of the .30 Mauser, based on one engagement in the Sudan. WW II found him with a .45, though.
I think you have to go to the history.
In the early days of the autopistol, Russia imported a lot of C96 Mausers; but held on to the gas seal Nagant revolver of similar small caliber but lower velocity, probably because they were tooled up for it. Then when they wanted to modernize from imported Mausers and obsolescent revolvers, they designed a pistol, the Tokarev, around the caliber they were familiar with. Then when submachineguns seemed the wave of the future, they naturally chambered them for the pistol caliber they were already loading.
I think it a matter of convenience rather than any calculated choice of an effective caliber.0 -
quote:Originally posted by gary wray
Cerainly the carbine was no Garand, but the round was much better than the Tok, which after all is a pistol round, not a rifle round.
The Tokarev round could be a rifle/carbine round, if its launched from a carbine or submachine gun. Also, the M1 carbine was essentially intended to serve the role of a pistol, being a low-power, but light and portable gun intended for support soldiers.
All that aside, its worth considering typical ballistics of each:
.30 carbine (aka 7.62x33) : 110 grain bullet @ 1900 fps.
7.62x25 (Tokarev): 85 grain bullet @ 1650 fps (submachine gun).
9mm Luger (Corbon "Pow'R'ball"): 100 grain bullet @ 1450 fps
.357 magnum: 110 grain bullet @ 1500 fps (pistol)
125 grain bullet @ 1450 fps (pistol), 1800 fps (rifle).
So at a first glance, the .30 carbine significantly outperforms the Tokarev round.
Comparing the Tokarev round to more common pistol calibers using light bullets, I don't think you get much of an advantage either.0 -
In "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes of the Shanghai PD in the preWW2 period,
They cite the very destructive effects of the 96 Mauser cartridge. It had the reputation of pulping an arm or leg long bone and was widely feared.
Tokarev barrels are probably 1/3 the length of PPSH41s therefore produce lower velocity.
Bullet shape of the FMJ Carbine is ogival while the 7.62x25 bullet is round.
I believe the Carbine bullet shape is responsible for a bad rap as a man killer.
I was first impressed by the Tokarev when someone turned in a captured beat up one.
It easily shot through a creosoted RR tie. Comparing it with a 1911, the 45 wouldn't pass through a 3" live tree.0
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