Bullets tumble from HS.22 Mag Derringer
I own three High Standard Derringers in 22 Magnum Caliber. In two of them, the bullets tumble about 95% of the time and enter the target sideways. I have tried both 40 and 30 grain bullets. Anyone else have this problem and is there anything that can be done to prevent this? I know it is basically a 2-20 foot weapon but I would still like the bullets to stabilize. Can a 17 Hornady rimfire magnum be safely fired in one of these derringers. If the bullets are going to tumble anyway, what would it hurt? What are your experiences with these guns? Thanks for any replies.
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The one that I had was only reliable with Federal made .22 Mag ammo. With other brands one barrel always seemed to have FTF problems. Never was particularly concerned with accuracy, considering it's intended usage. It seems to me that a unstable keyholing bullet, would be a plus in a handgun like this, made for up close and personal work. Never was under any illusion that any of the .22 Mag H-P's, would actually open from the short barrel(s) of the derringer. 0 -
read a test report of NAA that said 22mag was less effective than a 22lr in short barrel. but tumble changes that...in 22lr i would consider using quik-shok 0 -
quote:Originally posted by TWalker
I own three High Standard Derringers in 22 Magnum Caliber. In two of them, the bullets tumble about 95% of the time and enter the target sideways. I have tried both 40 and 30 grain bullets. Anyone else have this problem and is there anything that can be done to prevent this? I know it is basically a 2-20 foot weapon but I would still like the bullets to stabilize.
You could try other ammo, but if you've already tried a variety of bullet weights (particularly light bullets) then probably not.
Not incidentally, the .22 magnum was designed as a rifle round and needs a long barrel to achieve its high velocity. The ballistics are compromised significantly from a short barrel.
With a 2" pistol barrel, you could only expect to get about 1100 fps muzzle velocity using 40 grain bullets.
That's roughly equivalent to the velocity you'd get from an ordinary 40 grain .22 long rifle from a rifle barrel.
In general, I don't see bullet tumbling/keyholing as a "good" thing in this case, because a sideways impact could significantly reduce penetration, and that's really the limiting factor in defensive use of these small bullets. Tumbling *might* be helpful with a high-energy bullet, but that's not the case here.
quote:
Can a 17 Hornady rimfire magnum be safely fired in one of these derringers. If the bullets are going to tumble anyway, what would it hurt? What are your experiences with these guns? Thanks for any replies.
The ammo manufacturer and Hi-Standard (if it weren't defunct) would both tell you not to do this and to only use ammo in the gun it was designed for.
Off the record, you might be able to get .17 HMR to fire in this gun without injuring the gun or yourself, but there would be no advantage whatever to doing this.
The .17 is already a light bullet offering minimal penetration. Not only is it not really suitable for defense, but you'd be doubly compromising it with the short and wrong-caliber barrel.
Again, with these tiny and relatively low energy bullets, penetration is the single most important factor for defensive use. So in general, you want the heaviest possible bullet in a given caliber.
To the point, if you throw that .17 caliber bullet down a .22 caliber bore not only will the bullet not stabilize, but the loose bore will mean gas will blow around the bullet during firing. The effect will be less velocity than what you would expect from an appropriate caliber 2" bbl. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you got less velocity from the .17 as from the .22.0 -
quote:Originally posted by spasmcreek
read a test report of NAA that said 22mag was less effective than a 22lr in short barrel. but tumble changes that...in 22lr i would consider using quik-shok
I'm not sure about that. While it might be true in comparing certain individual loads, in general, I don't think its the case.
NAA has published ballistics numbers for all its guns using common ammo and .22magnum seems to consistently and significantly outperform .22LR using similar weight bullets from similar barrels. I think this data is very instructive:
http://www.naaminis.com/naaveloc.html
None of these tables take "keyholing" into account, but in general, a bullet that goes in sideways isn't going to penetrate as deeply as one that goes in nose first and penetration is usually the limiting factor in defensive use of light bullets. Now how much of a difference this is going to make in the real world is debatable, but on balance I don't think its an advantage.
As a second issue, bullets that tumble tend to be inaccurate and lose velocity quickly, though at 10 foot defensive distance, that isn't really a factor.0 -
This may be out in left field, but is the bullet even spinning? Maybe the barrel is overbore and the bullet isn't fully engaging the rifling. 0 -
I agree with beantown, the .22 needs to penetrate.
This little slug is a proven mankiller, but needs good penetration to do its work, so you want to eliminate the tumbling.
Sorry I have no suggestions as to how to do that, my HiStandard .22 had not tumbled regardless of what ammo I use.0 -
Ref: tumbling: One thing to check would be the crown. Inspect it closely with a magnifying glass under strong light, and if all seems well, clean the muzzle squeaky clean then shoot a box of ammo through it and check for any telltale asymetry in the pattern left on the crown. If the crown is lopsided a good gun smith should be able to correct the problem. If there's a slight burr or ding at the muzzle you could probably do that work yourself.
As for the 17 cal.: (and I should have considered this before I opened myself up to attack for shooting .22 l.r. in a .22 mag. cylinder![:D])
There may be a risk of the narrower neck of the brass funneling combustion gases along the outside of the case and to the rear? Don't think I'll try that one, and expansion of the case body may prevent it, but it seems worth considering.0 -
Thanks to each of you for your replies. I think I will forget shooting any .17 caliber ammo in these guns. Even if it is safe, and I'm not sure it is, it appears there is no advantage. I will stay with the 40 grain bullets and forget the lighter ones as they probably won't penetrate as well. I will inspect the muzzle crowns for any signs of damage and clean the barrels well. I will try some different brands of ammo. Finally, I will compare penetration of stabilized bullets vs. tumbling bullets by shooting each into wet phone books and comparing the results. I will report back with my results after I complete the tests. Thanks again for the helpful advice. 0 -
Hello,
Have you ever tried "slugging" the bore and checking the diameter?0
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