Colt Address on Non-Colt Percussion Revolvers
Over the years I have observed many replica percussion revolvers that have the Colt Address on top of the barrel. I have collected a few stories about these and would like to hear from anyone who has an idea on the history of these markings.
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Are you talking about the black powder revolvers that Colt had made in Italy and sold in the US? I have an 1862 Colt replica that was sold by the Italian maker with a Colt address barrel. I was told that after Colt canceled the contract, they used the left over barrels on their guns. 0 -
To add a bit to Perryw's comment. At the time Colt came out with their "Genuine Colt Black Powder Revolvers" they didn't go out of their way to make it clear that these were basically Italian revolvers made to Colt specs. I had to do some real digging, and in the end it was my own research and not any input from Colt, that confirmed my suspicions. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by RCrosby
To add a bit to Perryw's comment. At the time Colt came out with their "Genuine Colt Black Powder Revolvers" they didn't go out of their way to make it clear that these were basically Italian revolvers made to Colt specs. I had to do some real digging, and in the end it was my own research and not any input from Colt, that confirmed my suspicions.
So is it your opinion that the 2nd Generation revolvers are not "genuine" Colt products? If your answer is yes, why are they not genuine Colt products.
John0 -
John,
On the off chance that there might be some confusion here, remember that we're talking about the Colt black powder revolvers. There are "first, second and third generation" SAA's, all of which are genuine Colts; i.e. made in Hartford. The "genuine Colt" black powders, on the other hand, at most, may have been assembled in Hartford from Italian parts.
In no way "genuine Colts" in my book, but that's just my opinion. We all have 'em.[:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by RCrosby
John,
On the off chance that there might be some confusion here, remember that we're talking about the Colt black powder revolvers. There are "first, second and third generation" SAA's, all of which are genuine Colts; i.e. made in Hartford. The "genuine Colt" black powders, on the other hand, at most, may have been assembled in Hartford from Italian parts.
In no way "genuine Colts" in my book, but that's just my opinion. We all have 'em.[:D]
Hi RCrosby,
No, I don't think there is any confusion. As to opinions, yes, we can all have one, but it is better to base it on factual information. I agree that there was considerable subcontracting on the 2nd Gen Blackpowder Colt revolvers. However, subcontracting has a long history at Colt beginning in the Paterson era when accessories were purchased in Europe and marked with the Paterson name. As to firearms, the Colt Walker was contracted to Eli Whitney because Colt had no factory at that time. Yet collectors have no problem paying $100,000+ for these subcontracted Walkers, and I know of no one who considers them anything less than genuine Colt products.
Fast forwarding a little bit to the Civil War, Colt purchased thousands of parts for his rifle muskets in Europe, as evidenced by the following letter to his brother-in-law in 1861:
"I hope you have contracted for a full supply of Rifle Barrels of the length of the Springfield pattern which is about one and a quarter of an inch longer than the English Enfield pattern..I hope you have also contracted for a large lot of Military percussion gun locks. We shall be much in want of them before we can make any. Your contract should be so many a month and secure them of the Enfield pattern. If you can send forward by steamer with or soon after the barrels and at first we shall want as many percussion Rifle Locks as we do barrels."
Elisha K. Root confirms these purchases when he writes in early 1862, in an explanation to the U. S. Government after they launched an investigation (the Holt-Owen Commission) into fraud, overspending, and delays in military contracts. After stating that Colt Firearms acted in good faith, purchased adequate machinery, suitable buildings, etc., Root writes that Colt made "the purchases abroad of barrels, locks, and other such parts as might be necessary [for the manufacture of rifle-muskets]."
Colt also subcontracted with about 15-20 US supplies on the manufacture of his rifle muskets during the Civil War. Once again, every collector I have met considers these Civil War .58 caliber muskets made by Colt as genuine Colt products, even though much of the work was subcontracted.
Colt also had complete rifles made in England, once again referring to a letter to his BIL in 1861:
After Colt had sent Jarvis [his BIL] to Europe during the beginning stages of the Civil War, he wrote to him in June of 1861 a series of letters authorizing him to contract for 2,500 Enfield rifle-muskets with screw type barrel bands, that the lock and cone seat "may be the same as those made at the Enfield armory", but "not to make the length of the barrels you order made any shorter then those made at Springfield and have all of them made like the Springfield in every other particular except the cone seat.All metallic parts must be finished bright like the Springfield pattern. The heel plate and Trigger Guard to be iron.the locks must be brightened on the outside after case hardening as well as all the other mountings, except the trigger and sights. You must look carefully to your Springfield model for all the little details and have our arms look just like it, except so far as I have directed changes."
If one of these "Colt Enfields" could be identifed today, I can assure you that collectors would pay good money for one and would happily consider it a Colt product.
There is much more I could add, but I can assure you that subcontracting has a very long history at Colt, as well as at Winchester, Remington, etc.
John0 -
John,
Impressive bit of history, and appreciated. I don't expect we'll resolve this difference of opinion but I do feel that Colt went out of its way to give the impression that, like the originals, these second generation Colt b.p.'s were manufactured in Hartford by Colt craftsman, and not by the Italians.
Like the man said, "Just because the cat had her kittens in the oven, don't make 'em biscuits", and just because Colt had their name stamped on the barrel and printed on the box don't make 'em real Colts.
I suppose one day they may join the rank and file lineage of "real" Colts, but I suspect I'll be long gone before anyone drops the asterisk explaining that these Colts were made in Italy for, and not by, Colt.0 -
quote:Originally posted by RCrosby
John,
Impressive bit of history, and appreciated. I don't expect we'll resolve this difference of opinion but I do feel that Colt went out of its way to give the impression that, like the originals, these second generation Colt b.p.'s were manufactured in Hartford by Colt craftsman, and not by the Italians.
Like the man said, "Just because the cat had her kittens in the oven, don't make 'em biscuits", and just because Colt had their name stamped on the barrel and printed on the box don't make 'em real Colts.
I suppose one day they may join the rank and file lineage of "real" Colts, but I suspect I'll be long gone before anyone drops the asterisk explaining that these Colts were made in Italy for, and not by, Colt.
Before you decide to leave that asterisk, understand that the revolvers were not made in Italy. Some parts did come from Italy as well as US suppliers, but Colt was heavily involved in the manufacture, quality, etc. of their 2nd Gen BP revolvers, to even include stop motion photography in conducting ballistic and pressure testing.
To illustrate Colt's total involvement, collector and author Dennis Russell has made us aware of Colt's 120 page internal manual for their Second Generation cap and ball revolvers entitled "Summary of Operations", as well as "Colt Firearms Engineering Specification # CS1030". These publications dealt with every aspect of quality, safety, performance and appearance, and outlined in microscopic detail how every part was to be inspected, filed, fitted, rough polished, match polished, finish polished, blend chamfered, rolled with the cylinder scene, applied with markings and serial numbers, color case hardened, blued, silver plated, etc., etc., and even where the clear lacquer for the grips was to be obtained (Haines Laboratories, Chicopee Falls, MA).
To state that the revolvers were made in Italy and Colt simply had their name stamped on them is wrong. To leave the asterisk is your right [:)]
John0 -
Very interesting read. The "P" series colts, the venerable 1873 "cowboy guns" (SAA's) comes to mind..
Some of my SAA's are 2nd generation. A re-issuance of the marque, as it were. There seems a consensus of agreement that they [SAA's] won't ever engender such a discussion as I have witnessed above in this string.
Could the 2nd generation 1860 model Colts simply be getting a bad reputation vis-a-vis authenticity? Perhaps valid, maybe not. But one thing is certain..
If the 2nd generation percussion (1860's?) were made exactly in the same location, and by the same artesans as the 2nd generation SAA's, this topic would never have flourished. Best, Joe0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
Very interesting read. The "P" series colts, the venerable 1873 "cowboy guns" (SAA's) comes to mind..
Some of my SAA's are 2nd generation. A re-issuance of the marque, as it were. There seems a consensus of agreement that they [SAA's] won't ever engender such a discussion as I have witnessed above in this string.
Could the 2nd generation 1860 model Colts simply be getting a bad reputation vis-a-vis authenticity? Perhaps valid, maybe not. But one thing is certain..
If the 2nd generation percussion (1860's?) were made exactly in the same location, and by the same artesans as the 2nd generation SAA's, this topic would never have flourished. Best, Joe
I believe education and correct information has much to do with it. After all these years (the 2nd Gen cap and ball revolvers were made 1971-1982) there are still many who consider them to be "glorified Uberties", because they believe the guns were simply made in Italy and then stamped with the Colt name.
While Italian replicas made in the last few years have improved in quality, those that I handled in the 1970's lacked much in the fit and finish department. How anyone can look at this 2nd Gen Navy revolver from Colt and not see Colt written all over it is beyond me.
John0 -
Second Generation Colts are genuine Colts and will letter from the factory. The earliest ones were actually finished at the Colt factory in Hartford from 1971-1973.
Here's one I bought last year that was a 2nd Generation factory show gun in Las Vegas:0
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