WWII era 1911 experts
Local paper has a 1911 with the following description. I'd like to know if the 1911 warrants the price he is asking which is between the range he quotes.
THIS PISTOL IS EXTREMELY RARE - there are a few web sites that list this same exact serial number range pistol at between $4,000.00 and $5,000.00.
This weapon was brought back by a US Marine aviator from WWII, who was a Corsair pilot who was even into the Korean era and got out as a Lieutenant Colonel. The family had no info on the WWII carrier, but in Korea he flew off the Bataan as part of VMF-121. On to the gun.
What a beauty. Besides a bit of spotting in the barrel, it is pristine with only superficial and almost non-existent handling. Sparkling crisp detail and the finish is 99.9% intact. <
The Serial Number is between 916405-921699 Serial Numbers were in the 1st run) and since this was part of Remington Rand's first production lot, that makes this is gun number 8,xxx. That makes it a rarer TYPE 1 marked "SYRACUSE, NEW YORK" SPELLED OUT ON THE FRAME.
Has all the original factory features intact, no replaced features.
FJA is the mark of Inspector Lt. Col Frank J. Atwood on Remington-Rand 1911A1 pistols. Col. Frank J. Atwood was commanding officer of the Rochester Ordnance District; he personally inspected nothing, but as CO he was responsible for all the ordnance material accepted by the Army from that region. His initials appear on rifles and shotguns by Remington and Ithaca, as well as pistols by Ithaca and Remington Rand and military vehicles. His "FJA" stamp is NOT a rebuild mark; it was put on only at the original maker's factory.
The crossed cannons on the gun was the official Army Ordnance Department acceptance stamp. The "P" is the proof mark, meaning that the weapon was fired with an overloaded "proof" cartridge and did not fail.
This has the early era Remington Rand blued hammer, slide stop, safety and trigger.....I think it was called "du-lite". Blued barrel as well, with the "HS" on it.
G: Government contract order (this is on the inside, inner top of the frame).
Unfinished bullet ramp, era "C-S" on the lip of the magazine.
Mint grips.
You will have a hard time finding any RR with an earlier date than this.
THIS PISTOL IS EXTREMELY RARE - there are a few web sites that list this same exact serial number range pistol at between $4,000.00 and $5,000.00.
This weapon was brought back by a US Marine aviator from WWII, who was a Corsair pilot who was even into the Korean era and got out as a Lieutenant Colonel. The family had no info on the WWII carrier, but in Korea he flew off the Bataan as part of VMF-121. On to the gun.
What a beauty. Besides a bit of spotting in the barrel, it is pristine with only superficial and almost non-existent handling. Sparkling crisp detail and the finish is 99.9% intact. <
The Serial Number is between 916405-921699 Serial Numbers were in the 1st run) and since this was part of Remington Rand's first production lot, that makes this is gun number 8,xxx. That makes it a rarer TYPE 1 marked "SYRACUSE, NEW YORK" SPELLED OUT ON THE FRAME.
Has all the original factory features intact, no replaced features.
FJA is the mark of Inspector Lt. Col Frank J. Atwood on Remington-Rand 1911A1 pistols. Col. Frank J. Atwood was commanding officer of the Rochester Ordnance District; he personally inspected nothing, but as CO he was responsible for all the ordnance material accepted by the Army from that region. His initials appear on rifles and shotguns by Remington and Ithaca, as well as pistols by Ithaca and Remington Rand and military vehicles. His "FJA" stamp is NOT a rebuild mark; it was put on only at the original maker's factory.
The crossed cannons on the gun was the official Army Ordnance Department acceptance stamp. The "P" is the proof mark, meaning that the weapon was fired with an overloaded "proof" cartridge and did not fail.
This has the early era Remington Rand blued hammer, slide stop, safety and trigger.....I think it was called "du-lite". Blued barrel as well, with the "HS" on it.
G: Government contract order (this is on the inside, inner top of the frame).
Unfinished bullet ramp, era "C-S" on the lip of the magazine.
Mint grips.
You will have a hard time finding any RR with an earlier date than this.
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Did I miss it here, or did you not tell us the persons actual asking price? I saw the internet ballpark you listed, but not the guys asking price? Not a new scenario, but I am a triffle confused! 0 -
We were given a range of serial numbers, & a range of asking prices, a range of conditions, so my evaluation would have to be in the "maybe-restored-to-good-deal-to-overpriced" range.
I wish the seller gave us as many detailed facts & photos as he did words. He apparently is knowledgeable about this model, or at least has access to reference books.
The Type I variation is actually quite scarce in excellent, original condition. I don't remember the last time I saw one sell, so I can't comment on what the price "should" be.
I noted a couple of items that would concern me. First, most Type I R-R's have a Colt barrel; plus, we don't really know how bad the pitting is. And, a C-S (Colt-Scovill) marked mag would probably have come with a Colt 1911A1, not likely with a R-R.
The advanced collectors in this field are familiar with many of the known original pistols, as well as the fakes. I would not play slap-and-tickle with the seller without full disclosure of the serial number & numerous detailed photos.
Neal
EDIT: Browningman, I understand why you were reluctant to include a link, as our host doesn't permit links to competing websites; however, it appears that they have wisely determined that this is hardly competition. The seller is correct that the type I slide marking (SYRACUSE, NEW YORK) is rare; however, this gun clearly has the type III slide marking (SYRACUSE, N.Y. U.S.A.). It could just be the lighting, but it appears to me that the pistol offered has been refinished, & is a Mixed Parts Mongrel worth substantially less than he is asking.0 -
I am not a collector or speculator and do not have the reference books usually cited to jack up the prices of army surplus guns, but from www.coolgunsite.com I find:
Remington Rand did not start routinely using High Standard barrels until 1943. A very early 1942 gun such as this would be expected to have a Colt or Springfield barrel. Hey, maybe it is the first HS off the line... or a replacement.
A magazine marked C-S was made for Colt by Scovill. A gun retaining its original magazine through two wars would be highly unlikely, of course. Also highly valuable.
War stories are very interesting but if you don't have proof connecting somebody with a specific gun, stories is all you get. Buy the gun, not the story.
Scott Gahimer has set up a website devoted to collectable 1911s.
http://m1911info.com/
He will do authentications. It isn't free, but for a gun claimed to be worth $4000+ I would want more expert assistance than a public board.
As Neal says, that is not a first run slide legend.
Also, the grips are a later type; first run grips did not have the smooth reinforcing rings around the screws.
A local ad for a supposedly high dollar gun is a big red flag.0 -
MAN I enjoy reading your posts Neal...cannot remember the last time I heard the"slap and tickle" analogy. I of course agree with what you said there. Even I know a R-R early is a rare gun, but could not determine the actual question here. 0 -
Hate to say it but the seller comes across as a shuck and jive BS artist, fishing for a sucker.
Unless you can have a hands-on with the 1911, and get quality photos for identification and appraisal advice from our experts. Also notarized documents from the Colonel's family substantiating his ownership and war record, just walk away from the deal.0 -
Never pay for a story pay for a gun only. Then if the story can be proven to be correct.You are ahead of the game. a number of high quality pictures are a MUST and also return policy. I have [?][?][?] that have not been answered on this one 0 -
Sorry Browningman...now I get it. I did not realise that the majority of your post was from the add in the paper. I wonder 2 things. One, why would you go to that number of words in a newspapers classified add...very expensive and sounds like he is trying to catch the uninitiated in a greedy moment. Second, WHY would you advertise a collectors [pistol in the newspaper? How many serious collectors even look at the classifieds anymore? I do know people that have amassed quite the collection in that manner, but that was largely befor the 1990's at least. I see red flags, and without the ability to put hands on it and take pictures to submit to either ourselves or someone like Mr. Gahimer, I would guess he was looking to sting the greedy and or uninitiated who might be willing to take a "flyer" on a possible "great deal". Make him provide you the opportunity to take those pictures or you are really taking a chance. 0 -
Small correction, not in the paper but the local NBC affiliate's website - and they are free classifieds. Sorry for the confusion. I'll post the link if oaky to do so.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=12458319&cat=&lpid=&search=rand0 -
NOW I wonder why it has been on that site for over 3 months? Really doesn't seem like much of a venue for something like that. Did not see U.S. property in the pics...if I were him I would for sure. The only detraction I see from that series of pics is the Ordnance wheel which is very faint; having said that, I see no obvious signs of refinishing. Again, more close up pictures and a hands on viewing befor even contemplaqting that kind of money expenditure! 0 -
Values of collectible M1911A1 pistols, such as a 1st type slide address Remington Rand pistol, are subjective. However, what is not subjective is whether the pistol is original finish, has all correct parts and whether those parts appear to be original to the pistol.
I launched my web site primarily to provide inspection and online opinion services for those wishing to buy such pieces, but who need a little help authenticating them. I provide those services, and others, for those who subscribe to the site ($30 annually) and order them.
The $30 subscription also provides full access to the site, which includes the Gallery, where I currently show about 1400 photos and provide collector information for about 200 pistols in my collection, as well as a few I have sold through the site. Most of those pistols are USGI M1911 and M1911A1 pistols. I also show several other USGI pistols and revolvers. Because I have collected Axis Powers pistols (mostly Walther PP & PPk pistols) for several years, I also show several WWII pistols captured by U.S. troops on my site.
There are typically hundreds of collectible USGI pistols for sale online any given day. As I review many of those pieces for sale, I find only a small percentage of them are properly represented and correctly described. Most are overpriced, IMO, for what they are. There isn't anything wrong with paying top dollar for nice, original pieces, and there isn't any reason to pay top dollar unless the piece checks out.
I allow subscribers to submit a Wishlist, and seek to help them acquire pieces they wish to achieve their collecting goals. There are (12) different Categories in my Gallery to allow subscribers to compare pistols to specific known original examples I have and document on my site. I show large 1024 x 768 images with excellent detail.
I encourage those interested in U.S. military pistols to visit my site and check out the various services I provide. They are listed under M1911 Solutions on the site's menu bar.
I only provide information on commercial pistols that are pre-70 Series Colts, not those manufactured after about 1970. I cover all the M1911 and M1911A1 pistols manufactured 1912-1919, 1924 and 1937-1945. On the site, every manufacture of M1911 and M1911 is covered and shown in just about every serial range ever manufactured.
I provide searchable information by year, manufacturer, model, serial number, branch of service, finish, final inspection, caliber, action and barrel markings. Besides more than 200 pistols, there are about 75 other items shown in the Gallery, primarily related to the military pistols.
So check out the site, and take advantage of the information and services offered there to help you safely purchase collectible pistols. Feel free to contact me with questions about the site or services I offer.
I did not see the photos for the 1st logo mentioned in this thread by the OP. I'm new to this message board and perhaps did not know how to view them. But, I would not recommend chasing any pistol without first determinging whether it is likely to be original. Learning doesn't have to cost a lot of money. Some people just choose to make it that way.
Edited: I just saw the link to the photos. That pistol does not appear to be original finish and does not have correct parts.0
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