Lee Enfield No.1 Mk III questions
Hello.
I purchased a 1941 Lee Enfield No.1 Mk III the other day at the Harrisburg Gun Knife & Military Convention. I paid a small amount of 200 USD on it, and the only reason i could see that it was so cheap off quick inspection was a well worn stock. I looked at the rifling and bore and made sure everything was in working order.
Upon further inspection after my purchase, I realized it had "DP" marked all over it, obviously marked as a Drill Purpose rifle. What confuses me however is that this gun is in fireable condition.
Every metal piece on the weapon is marked as "DP" from the simple stock clamps to the magazine and the bolt. Even the stock is stamped DP on the butt. Also on the butt of the stock there is what looks to be a stamped insignia with "I S" and then a figure that i can't make out because the stock was sanded down long ago. The last letter is either an A or an R. These letters are in a Circle, and above the S there seems to be an upwards arrow. behind this it seems somebody carved or stamped into the wood the number "200" with two very spaced "1"s above it.
On the wristguard it gives me a little more information about it, being a 1941 rifle having the british crown and "G.R." underneath, standing for Georgus Rex, for George VI while he was at the throne (until 1952). Under this, where it is supposed to list the manufacturer abbreviation, it just has "P.", any idea who that is? also at the bottom after listing the actual make of the gun, it is scratched onto the metal "FTP"
If anybody could tell me why this gun is the way it is, it'd be great. I am confused because being marked as "D.P." it should be a non-firing weapon. Yet here it lies before me, perfectly capable of being fired with no problems. Nothing is welded shut or welded together and it has a nearly impeccable rifling and bore.
I purchased a 1941 Lee Enfield No.1 Mk III the other day at the Harrisburg Gun Knife & Military Convention. I paid a small amount of 200 USD on it, and the only reason i could see that it was so cheap off quick inspection was a well worn stock. I looked at the rifling and bore and made sure everything was in working order.
Upon further inspection after my purchase, I realized it had "DP" marked all over it, obviously marked as a Drill Purpose rifle. What confuses me however is that this gun is in fireable condition.
Every metal piece on the weapon is marked as "DP" from the simple stock clamps to the magazine and the bolt. Even the stock is stamped DP on the butt. Also on the butt of the stock there is what looks to be a stamped insignia with "I S" and then a figure that i can't make out because the stock was sanded down long ago. The last letter is either an A or an R. These letters are in a Circle, and above the S there seems to be an upwards arrow. behind this it seems somebody carved or stamped into the wood the number "200" with two very spaced "1"s above it.
On the wristguard it gives me a little more information about it, being a 1941 rifle having the british crown and "G.R." underneath, standing for Georgus Rex, for George VI while he was at the throne (until 1952). Under this, where it is supposed to list the manufacturer abbreviation, it just has "P.", any idea who that is? also at the bottom after listing the actual make of the gun, it is scratched onto the metal "FTP"
If anybody could tell me why this gun is the way it is, it'd be great. I am confused because being marked as "D.P." it should be a non-firing weapon. Yet here it lies before me, perfectly capable of being fired with no problems. Nothing is welded shut or welded together and it has a nearly impeccable rifling and bore.
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DP guns are an area of collecting that has its pitfalls. Chances are good that if the gun is marked DP, it is just that...Drill Purpose only. Sometimes these guns were denied on inspection because of bad heat treatment, and marked accordingly. Obviously, there are DP guns that are sound, but short of magnfluxing the whole thing, you could never be sure. Could work great...reciever could shatter and kill you.
Where you said there was an "FTP" "scratched" into the the metal...does that perhaps say FTR, for Factory Thorough Repair? If so, that would be even more confusing!0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1KYDSTR
Could work great...reciever could shatter and kill you.
Where you said there was an "FTP" "scratched" into the the metal...does that perhaps say FTR, for Factory Thorough Repair? If so, that would be even more confusing!
Should i have it inspected by a gunsmith just to be safe before going to the firing rang? the wood seems real old, and the wood on top of the barrel (the name escapes me at the moment) seems as if the gun was fired a lot. The rifling and bore says otherwise though.
As for the "FTP", it could be FTR, but its so faint that its hard to tell. it was hand scrawled onto there.
I also noticed that underneath the rear sights when i lift it up, there are multiple serial numbers stamped there! It does, however, have the serial that matches the rest of the gun. The parts of my gun are listed as "L1059" or "E1059", however the magazine is just "DP". This gun is starting to become extremely confusing! hahaha.0 -
I agree Jake, confusing indeed. I fear taking to a gunsmith is going to be the same general response I've given you. They see "DP" and most reputable guys will just tell you unfit to fire, and likely, rightly so. In their training, things like this are covered as it has been done to US and English guns as well and it should be a sure cue to them that they are dealing with a non-firing specimen. One reason the wood looks so bad and the metal looks so good? Having been used for years in fledgling attempts at the Queen Ann's salute where the gun wound up on the tarmac! Most Parade guns were slicked up and sometimes chromed to look pretty and some of those guns are DP's too, but they were RARELY practiced with; the DP guns were intended to be practiced with, and got beat up.
Since it is marked clearly DP, any cadet, marching band member(DT member...sorry)inductee, or ROTC member would have never fired it, regardless of inclination. That equals really pretty bores (as long as corrosive blanks were not used in salute, but that opens up another can of worms as I think those guns may have been altered for salute purpose)and great mechanical condition, especially if the gun was rejected late in the inspection process after final finishing. Anyway, there are people on this board who likely specialize in these guns and are more astute than I; they may know things I don't! At any rate, don't shoot it until more people have chimed in as this could be like an early serial Springfield '03...bad heat treat and a total crap shoot as to modern ammo and survivability!0 -
Have to agree with the gent up above me- someone went thru the trouble to ensure that you knew not to shoot the rifle- I would not. Likely that it has failed some part of tech inspection- headspace, frame, a crack you did not see. etc. I woud not. A smith may be able to tell you WHY not, but likely that the NO cannot be changed to YES, or the arsenal would have done that. 0 -
This kind of angers me as the people who sold it to me did not tell me this whatsoever. They saw that i wanted a Lee Enfield, and they just kinda were like "oh i think you should get it!" and almost pushed the damn paperwork into my hands... If it turns out this is a non-fireable weapon, is there any way i could file a lawsuit against them for this? they acted as though this was a working gun. 0 -
Is the firing pin cut? When the British DP'ed Enfields, that usually meant they were worn out, and they would usually cut the firing pin, among other parts. The Aussies, however, when needing a drill rifle, would pick the oldest rifles on hand, and mark them "DP", leaving them complete, regardless of condition.
Your rifle might fall into either category. Either way, I wouldn't shoot it until it was properly checked out.
If you can, get back with the person that sold it to you, and tell them what's going on with it, and go from there. If nothing else, strip the rifle, and sell off everything but the receiver and bolt, if you're concerned that they aren't safe. You'd probably end up coming quite close to getting your $200 back that way.
Jumping on the lawsuit bandwagon right off the bat is a knee-jerk reaction, in my opinion. You'll sink more money into a lawyer than you will replacing the rifle.0 -
Well, it is not an Australian model, thats is for sure. It's definitely a product of the UK. The firing pin does not appear to be cut but how would i know if it is cut for sure or not?
Also, another gun salesman who took a quick look at it after i bought it did dry fire it and the action is fine. The only thing is the bolt kind of springs open when it's auto-cocked. It remains closed, but if you bump it with slight force it springs open, is this supposed to happen?
The enfield most certainly isn't worn out as far as i can tell. the wood is the only thing that is worn on it. the insides are like factory condition. as for the firing pin, what does a cut one look like?
Also, i have no way of contacting the man who sold it to me. He did not write his contact information down for his shop on the receipt, and i did not realize it till now, but he tore the top portion of the receipt off, that is normally the section with the header and all the contact info. This seems awfully fishy, and the guy wasn't the nicest man i've ever met. Seemed like typical jersey trash to be honest with you, no offense to anybody if you're from jersey.0 -
actually i compared the pin to my Mosin-Nagant firing pin. It does not appear to be cut.
Could it be a possibility that the owner before me was restoring it but lost interest? because it does have a stamped picture of what appears to be scissors on the bolt right over top of the DP marking, but the pin is obviously not cut, so it could be replaced?0 -
Yeah, it's frustrating when jersey trash put something over on higher class trash like us. But, it's not the end of the world. You bought a "decorator", believing that it was a "shooter". No point in overthinking this, your choices are to keep it, sell it as is, or part it out. Restoring it so that it can be fired is not an option.
A lot of gun show dealers are part timers. So, not surprising that you got no guarantee. You always have to know what you are buying, you can't depend on the seller to tell you about "problems".
In your position, I'd just sell the gun as is here on GB. I'm often surprised that guns I think are worthless junk are just what someone else is looking for.
If you want an Enfield "shooter", I suggest that you look for an Ishapore 2A in 7.62mm NATO; they sell on GB for < $200, & most of them I've seen have mint bores.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=196649637
You might want to ask this forum for advice before you make your next purchase.
Neal
"...this is the first time you ever came to me for counsel or for help" --- Don Corleone0 -
Go to gunboards.com. Find the Lee-Enfield forum. Post quality pictures of the entire gun and all markings.
They should be able to definitavely tell you what you have and what it is safe for. We're just speculating based on what you've told us.0
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