The 8th gun made by the Ithaca Gun Company -II
Since I am new to this and found out there was a 10 reply limit (and I replied the most to the last post) we'll try this again, with new information.
I own a 10 gauge (verified by measurements) double barrel side by side with hammers. On the side of the receiver (?) is stamped "Ithaca, NY." Inside the receiver is stamped "Pat" and two dates "May 25, 1880" and "June 1, 1880." There is also "8/1" stamped on the receiver, the barrel and the forearm.
It is my understanding that the Ithaca Gun Company was the only manufacturer of firearms in Ithaca, NY circa 1880. It is also my understanding that Serial Numbers 1 - 2447 were manufactured between 1880 to 1885 and known as "Baker Doubles" in the community today. Back then they were called just about anything. I also know there were 5 or 6 grades for these guns.
I was assuming that since I see the Patent Dates, and the name Ithaca, and the "8/1" that I have a Grade 1, "Baker Double" and it is the 8th gun made by the Ithaca Gun Company.
Bert thought it might be an 8 gauge based on similar markings, but it was measured today by a gunsmith and found to be a 10 gauge.
I have not seen similar markings and would be curious to know if any manufacturer actually stamps the grade on the gun. I have not heard of that and would be surprised if anyone did, especially from the 1880's.
The gunsmith thought it might be serial number 871 and that the 7's were mis-stamped. I thought it would be strange to mis-stamp the 7 three times exactly the same, but it is possible they lost the 7 for this particular day. The 8/1 or 871 is stamped on the water table, the barrel and the forearm for a total of three times.
I'd like to hear from anyone that owns an Ithaca or has seen an Ithaca with serial numbers in the 700's or any serial number under 1000. What does your 7 look like? Is it a real 7?
I'd am anxious to hear from those in the know.
Here are pictures to help you get a better understanding...
I own a 10 gauge (verified by measurements) double barrel side by side with hammers. On the side of the receiver (?) is stamped "Ithaca, NY." Inside the receiver is stamped "Pat" and two dates "May 25, 1880" and "June 1, 1880." There is also "8/1" stamped on the receiver, the barrel and the forearm.
It is my understanding that the Ithaca Gun Company was the only manufacturer of firearms in Ithaca, NY circa 1880. It is also my understanding that Serial Numbers 1 - 2447 were manufactured between 1880 to 1885 and known as "Baker Doubles" in the community today. Back then they were called just about anything. I also know there were 5 or 6 grades for these guns.
I was assuming that since I see the Patent Dates, and the name Ithaca, and the "8/1" that I have a Grade 1, "Baker Double" and it is the 8th gun made by the Ithaca Gun Company.
Bert thought it might be an 8 gauge based on similar markings, but it was measured today by a gunsmith and found to be a 10 gauge.
I have not seen similar markings and would be curious to know if any manufacturer actually stamps the grade on the gun. I have not heard of that and would be surprised if anyone did, especially from the 1880's.
The gunsmith thought it might be serial number 871 and that the 7's were mis-stamped. I thought it would be strange to mis-stamp the 7 three times exactly the same, but it is possible they lost the 7 for this particular day. The 8/1 or 871 is stamped on the water table, the barrel and the forearm for a total of three times.
I'd like to hear from anyone that owns an Ithaca or has seen an Ithaca with serial numbers in the 700's or any serial number under 1000. What does your 7 look like? Is it a real 7?
I'd am anxious to hear from those in the know.
Here are pictures to help you get a better understanding...
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Anybody have any info? Are there no experts here?
Bert, what were the markings you were talking about?0 -
Purely speculation on my part, but I'd be willing to bet the stamping is an assembly number and not a serial number. Those old guns were hand fitted and the main parts would be stamped to insure they didn't get mixed up with others during the finishing process.
Well, I would have lost that bet! Curiosity led me to search others, and that's where the serial number is located.
Why don't you call the Jackson Armory in Dallas Texas for info. They are a very knowledgable antique gun shop and could possibly fill in the blanks for you.0 -
Both of those patents are correct...My guess is that you are correct in your assumption of serial number 8. But that's not the real interest in that firearm. I think I have the timeline correct when I say that Baker had recently moved to Ithaca at the time of manufacture of your gun. He had been in Syracuse at the time those patents were issued (1877 through 1880). He was in Marathon NY in 1863, Upper Lisle NY in 1875. Those two patents can be seen at these links http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=00228020&homeurl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%26Sect2=HITOFF%26d=PALL%26p=1%26u=%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fsrchnum.htm%26r=1%26f=G%26l=50%26s1=0228020.PN.%26OS=PN/0228020%26RS=PN/0228020&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page
and
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=00228165&homeurl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%26Sect2=HITOFF%26d=PALL%26p=1%26u=%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fsrchnum.htm%26r=1%26f=G%26l=50%26s1=0228165.PN.%26OS=PN/0228165%26RS=PN/0228165&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page
Baker left Syracuse sometime after June of 1880 and went to Ithaca for two main attractions.
1.)For the skilled human resources that were already there and standing idle for the most part.
2.) For the waterpower of Triphammer Falls.
There had already been a gun manufacturer in Ithaca that had been inactive. The trip hammers and water driven jackshafts were already in place. The manpower to run the triphammers were already in place and idle. Most importantly was a skilled labor pool nearby in Mott's Corners that were producing damascus and laminated steel at another water driven forge (that later became Losey & Lull).
You must be wondering what bearing this has on your gun? In the world of Side by Side shotgun collecting, damastwist barrels were only known to have been manufactured in two (possibly 3 (NYC)) places in America. Two that are known Boston, Mass and Mott's Corners NY. Most of the barrels produced at Mott's Corners were rifle barrels. American damascus is rare beyond rare and there is a chance that you have them.
Keep in mind that at the beginning of the breechloading era you could by a (still new) muzzleloading double (for conversion it to breechloading) for less that the cost of two newly imported damascus tubes. This is why guys like Barber and Lefever specialized in conversions. Many early Lefever guns also have Greener touchmarks and Birmingham proofs.
Are there ANY proofmarks or touchmarks?0 -
What are proofmarks or touchmarks and where would I find them? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Lex
What are proofmarks or touchmarks and where would I find them?
On the bottom of the barrels, on the flat section that sits on the frame when the barrels are locked in position.0 -
I found no proofmarks or touchmarks. Ther is no other stampings other than the serial numbers and patent dates.
I looked at another gun that was the 762 gun that Ithaca made and I saw the words London stampd on the sight line between the barrels. Mine has no stampings there either.
It does have nice damascus twist pattern to it.
How do we know if it has been manufacutured in US or overseas?
Robert, I was unable to open the links to the specific patents. Please resend.
Thanks.0 -
If in fact you don't have any proofmarks or touchmarks, that is a good sign as the skilled labor in and around Ithaca NY didn't send thier guns to a proofhouse. Instead, they proofed it themselves as with all Losey barrels.
You must examine the underside of the barrels beneath the fore end and on the barrel flats (VERY CAREFULLY) as sometimes proofs can by extremely tiny (especially Birmingham proof stamps) as I learned at this forum.
The best would be to macro photograph these areas and post the photos right here for all to see. Personally I feel that this gun belongs in a museum somewhere. There is little doubt that William Baker, Bob Edwards, and possibly Andrew Mc Farland each worked on the building of this gun.
You can't open the links above without Quicktime (plug-in) so lets try using Internet Explorer
http://www.google.com/patents?id=QhtoAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=228020&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.google.com/patents?id=d1RoAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA2&dq=228165&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
Please note the second patent number 228,165 is for a fore end latch/spring that was wide used by American gunmakers but has never been credited to W H Baker. The first patent number is 228,020
Let me know if you still can't view these patents and I will manually post them.
Chances are, that you have located a double on the leading edge of collecting American doubles. Unforttunately the collectors seem only to to want engraved Parkers and the like. Don't confuse MONEY COLLECTORS who specialize in doubles with true double shotgun collectors/historians. It may take years for this period of early Ithaca guns to be well known enough to command a fair price. In the mean time you should continue to research and save all info while allowing the piece to "ferment" a little longer.0
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