Custom Rifles.......Defined
What is your definition of a "custom rifle"?
First off, I hope that no ones feeling are being hurt by defining a custom rifle. What you have defined Mr. Nononsense as a "custom rifle" IMO is a factory rifle that has been factory customized.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=485262
The difference being that a custom rifle in most instances is a Remington/Mauser action, with a custom barrel, put together and stocked by a custom shop or individual.
The only point I was trying to make is that these types of firearms, while usually better than factory, have little collector value.
My intent is not to stir, but rather to inform many folks that tune in to GB to appraise there "Customized" rifle. Most of which are not a custom Pope/Winchester 1885 takedown or an engraved Holland & Holland double rifle.
First off, I hope that no ones feeling are being hurt by defining a custom rifle. What you have defined Mr. Nononsense as a "custom rifle" IMO is a factory rifle that has been factory customized.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=485262
The difference being that a custom rifle in most instances is a Remington/Mauser action, with a custom barrel, put together and stocked by a custom shop or individual.
The only point I was trying to make is that these types of firearms, while usually better than factory, have little collector value.
My intent is not to stir, but rather to inform many folks that tune in to GB to appraise there "Customized" rifle. Most of which are not a custom Pope/Winchester 1885 takedown or an engraved Holland & Holland double rifle.
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I read with interest the answers to the original post and I think CARTOD as well as NONONSENSE have valid points I would like to add one more point . It is my opinion that most Custom Guns be it pistol rifle or shotgun have added value IF built by someone who has built a reputation of quality workmanship and who is still living or had/has a strong following if no longer living.. For instance with my limited field of interest . Custom Colt 1911 style pistols produced by John Giles ,Bob Chow, Diana,Shocky,James/Jimmy Clark. ETC . However I think the danger in custom guns and value is like anything The merit of the product and the name of the maker both have a bearing on price. As the time goes by only the cream of the crop in makers maintain their value and then only if this type of Custom Gun has enough people that want this kind of gun . sort of like collecting guns where at one time any 90 % Wichester pre 64 was collectible now the number of collectors have gotten smaller and smaller so that only the 98 % guns continue to rise in value and the 90% guns in common cartridges are cheaper then 10 years ago.TIMING is everything a very good quality custom rifle but made buy a local gunsmith that died 40 years ago in a caliber that has fallen from favor 7X57 or say a 300H&H will IMHO not have the same value now as a well known living gunsmith in a modern Caliber but more important in another few years it will be hard to get even what a factory rifle of the same age will bring. 0 -
This is a question of semantics.
I take a very loose definition of the term, so to me a "custom rifle" is any rifle tailor built to one individual's particular specifications.
"Custom" isn't necessarily about the quality of the build (ie you could have a good or a bad "custom rifle"), but rather about the nature of the design. IE: If you can buy it off a rack somewhere, its probably not really "custom".
The term could be used to describe a high-end non-production rifle literally built from scratch by a "name" maker using an individually fabricated or tuned receiver, individually tailored stock, and high-end barrel.
Alternatively, a "custom" gun could be as simple as a 10-22 or AR-15 assembled from readily available aftermarket parts into a certain non-standard desired configuration.
What a gun like this will be worth is going to depend on caliber, configuration, quality of build, reputation of the builder (if applicable), and condition of the market.
Collectors generally want excellent examples of factory guns, and usually aren't interested in custom guns built from aftermarket or non-factory parts. *BUT* collectors value is always going to depend on the nature of the gun in question. Some custom guns (ie guns belonging to famous individuals) might have collectors value purely based on their historical association. As Perry suggested, others may have collectors value based on the reputation of the builder. Guns custom made from the factory may have decent collectors' value.0 -
For those with an interest in pre-war custom makers may I suggest the following.
http://www.precisionshooting.com/book_ads/book_ads_customgunmakers_frame.html0 -
Cartod,
I think what nononsense is saying in that last thread is, a lot of rifles get called custom. He also goes on to say, that when you have a true "custom" built by a craftsman, who carries credentials with a guild or association, those rifles are collectibles. They are. Surprisingly enough I've watched three, four and five thousand dollar rifles that were well built and look good, get sold while other good looking rifles for $1000-$1500 didn't. All because of the name of who built it.
How much does a name mean. Well, when it's backed by quality, A LOT! If you needed to do some serious earth moving. And you needed a fleet of heavy equipment. What brand first comes to mind? Caterpillar? When you build a reputation on quality and service to maintain that quality, people come to you because they know you can get the job done, even if the cost is much higher.
Here in the case of fine custom rifles we have a lot of "gun-art" included that enhances the value. Again, if you mentioned a current artist versus a classic artist you are going to see a huge difference. Status in art means a lot when it comes to the bottom line.
So, yes, in 'customs' there is a following. For the average rifle that gets modified there isn't always that much. Except if you'll note when it goes to a known good gunsmith. I see tactical forums all the time where someone can sell a trued up Rem 700 with a tactical stock and get $2K for it. Gap, Larue, Speedy Gonzales... but other guys...who do a good job? Don't make that off their rifles. I know my best shooting rifle wouldn't go up in price just because of the smith I had do it.
You see the difference?
Edit:
Perry, one reason you don't see the older less known high end guns is because they often don't hit the public market. The "niche" that nononsense talks about is definitely not a 'general sector' one. The mass buying public, as a rule, won't pay for that kind of quality, so it isn't offered. Unless in unusual cases where heirs aren't interested in the items.
Edit II:
quote:Originally posted by cartod
You make good sense sandwarior, and I can see now why some took offense to me saying "Custom rifle are not that collectible".
I guess I have always have looked at custom guns the same way I look at commeratives. I know there is alot of good American Talent out there that make custom guns, and I know they can go for big bucks.
It just when I hear the word "custom gun", I picture Jo-Bob pulling out the old trigger and putting in a "custom trigger" (which scares the hell out of me)...And then letting paul put a douglas barrel on etc. etc.
So, we know Caseyd the origianl author of this thread has certainly not had his feelings hurt by that wonderful rifle left to him.
We agree the craftsmanship of the builder Roy Vail, is top nothch American Iron. Why Did'nt the gun sell for more than $1250 (after 3 auction attempts)? Is it possibly just the photos, or condition?
I think a bunch of us have seen the Jo-bob...then Billy, etc., etc., rig. I've bought some of them to use as a basis for a custom. And yes, some of them are way scary.
To answer your last question I'll point you to what I've said in my first post. It's a known quality name that brings the higher price. But, the paying public doesn't usually spring for the kind of money these guns bring. My guess in this case was there weren't enough collectors having looked at it and got back to it to buy it. Times are tough too even for those with money. It wasn't just us 401k'ers that lost a bunch on the stock market. Maybe the market isn't moving for those type rifles (used high-end custom) right now.
Then again, I've watched a bunch of good deals get away just because I forgot to go back and bid on them.0 -
You make good sense sandwarior, and I can see now why some took offense to me saying "Custom rifle are not that collectible".
I guess I have always have looked at custom guns the same way I look at commeratives. I know there is alot of good American Talent out there that make custom guns, and I know they can go for big bucks.
It just when I hear the word "custom gun", I picture Jo-Bob pulling out the old trigger and putting in a "custom trigger" (which scares the hell out of me)...And then letting paul put a douglas barrel on etc. etc.
So, we know Caseyd the origianl author of this thread has certainly not had his feelings hurt by that wonderful rifle left to him.
We agree the craftsmanship of the builder Roy Vail, is top nothch American Iron. Why Did'nt the gun sell for more than $1250 (after 3 auction attempts)? Is it possibly just the photos, or condition?0 -
Custom rifles, regardless of vintage are bought, sold and evaluated on the quality of the workmanship. Rifles such as Griffin & Howe may be easier to sell because of the well recognized name on them yet there are rifles of equal or better workmanship that have no name on them yet sell for the same or more than a G&H.
A good example would be rifles by Wundhammer or Adolph who rarely if ever marked their work which routinely sell for more than a G&H.
There are many more collectors than rifles so the prices continue to escalate. On the plus side most folks don't recognize the good ones when they come up for sale so there are lots of opportunities to acquire a nice rifle at a good price.
As in all things, educate yourself about the things that interest you.
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Least we not forget that any idiot with an allen wrench can build a custom 10/22. 0
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