Model-97 Winchester 12 ga.
For more than 20 years I have owned a Winchester Model-97 12 ga. shotgun that has a strange feature. I hope someone can help me out with this. I wrote to George Maddis about it but never got a reply.
I bought the M-97 on an auction in rural Virginia. The forearm is aluminum rather than wood. It has the exact dimension and appearance of the normal wood handguard, except that it is aluminum. I studied the Maddis book regarding M-97, but he really did not have a lot of information and pictures of '97s. At the time that I purchased the aluminum handguarded M-97, I owned three other M-97s that all had wood handguards. Consequently the latest '97 with the aluminum handguard was a mystery and continues to be a mystery.
In an effort to determine that the aluminum handguard was made by some enterprising individual in his garage, I took the shotgun down to parts and inspected the aluminum handguard in extreme detail with magnifying glasses. The aluminum proved to be high quality and without pitting that would be common to at-home casting techniques. What was really interesting is that the steel of the actuator arm had to be press-fit into the aluminum. The actuator arm has a round or circular appendage that (normally) is press-fit with the wood handguard. In the case of this particular shotgun, the steel actuator was precisely press-fit into the aluminum handguard. My conclusion is that this appears to be a creation of the "factory" and not an amateur. I just can not see how gunsmith or otherwise amateur working in his garage could produce this aluminum handguard, and then press-fit it with the steel actuator arm.
I invite anyone and everyone to comment on this subject. It is possible that I shall have to take detailed photos of the old shotgun and send the photos to Buffalo Bill in Wyoming.
If I recall correctly, the shotgun was produced either in the first or second year of production.
I bought the M-97 on an auction in rural Virginia. The forearm is aluminum rather than wood. It has the exact dimension and appearance of the normal wood handguard, except that it is aluminum. I studied the Maddis book regarding M-97, but he really did not have a lot of information and pictures of '97s. At the time that I purchased the aluminum handguarded M-97, I owned three other M-97s that all had wood handguards. Consequently the latest '97 with the aluminum handguard was a mystery and continues to be a mystery.
In an effort to determine that the aluminum handguard was made by some enterprising individual in his garage, I took the shotgun down to parts and inspected the aluminum handguard in extreme detail with magnifying glasses. The aluminum proved to be high quality and without pitting that would be common to at-home casting techniques. What was really interesting is that the steel of the actuator arm had to be press-fit into the aluminum. The actuator arm has a round or circular appendage that (normally) is press-fit with the wood handguard. In the case of this particular shotgun, the steel actuator was precisely press-fit into the aluminum handguard. My conclusion is that this appears to be a creation of the "factory" and not an amateur. I just can not see how gunsmith or otherwise amateur working in his garage could produce this aluminum handguard, and then press-fit it with the steel actuator arm.
I invite anyone and everyone to comment on this subject. It is possible that I shall have to take detailed photos of the old shotgun and send the photos to Buffalo Bill in Wyoming.
If I recall correctly, the shotgun was produced either in the first or second year of production.
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OK, well I have sort of been dreading this picture thing. I guess that I will have to research here how to place photos into this site. 0 -
Bergtreffer,
If I am not mistakin', George Madis, is now the late George Madis. Hence, why there was no reply, or he just did not know, as usual. Yes, he wrote refference books, that had many flaws, that reflected the flaws in his research, or lack there of.
We have several Winchester experts on here, and a couple who have written both articles for the Winchester Arms Collectors Assosciation, and refference books of their own based on many months of research of factory ledgers that Madis had no access to. I am sure one of them will be along shortly. He goes by the name of Bert H., and is also a moderator on this forum.
There is a sticky topic near the top of the "Experts" forum, which describes how to post photo's. You will need to use that in conjunction with a photo hosting website like photobucket, to post pictures to the forum.
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the logical expenation would be that someone with access to a machine shop fabricated a new forend to replace a broken one. the '3 screw' forends are noted for breaking. 0 -
If you will provide me with the serial number, I will check the factory ledgers to what they have to say.
If it is an early (C-series) gun, Barzilla is correct, and Mike is most likely correct.
What (exactly) is stamped on the slide bar?0 -
OK, guys, I have taken pictures of the shotgun. For BertH, the serial number is 40,935, which according to "Winchester Dates of Manufacture" makes it a 1909 gun. However, I don't know how accurate that is.
I shall now have to see about getting the photos correctly sized.
I took the photos of the aluminum forearm '97 side-by-side with a 1943 produced '97 for comparison. I hope that I can get the photo sizing thing straight.0 -
Hopefully I can get the photos attached from imageshack. I placed a 1943 produced M-97 next to the 1909 produced M-97. I lined-up the trigger guards on the left edge of the small table, and as you can see the butt stock is longer on the old 1909 version. The 1909 version has a plain steel butt plate, similar to a military weapons. The aluminum foregrip of the old 1909 M-97 is or should be secured to the accuator arm by three screws. The gun only has one surviving screw, the other two are missing. These are both 12 ga. shotguns, and the 1909 version has a barrel that is one inch longer than the 1943 version. Also, the 1909 frame does not have the dual push buttons (left and right sides of the frame) that release the shot shells from the tubular magazine.
Notice on the close-up of the front sections of the aluminum fore stock, that you can see machining marks resulting from turning on a lathe. This aluminum fore stock is a very well done version of the wood fore stock, and it really does look factory made.
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Well, darn. I pasted the URLs of my photos on imageshack, and I see now that there are only red X's with what I wrote. I followed the instructions on the sticky. What now? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bergtreffer
OK, guys, I have taken pictures of the shotgun. For BertH, the serial number is 40,935, which according to "Winchester Dates of Manufacture" makes it a 1909 gun. However, I don't know how accurate that is.
I shall now have to see about getting the photos correctly sized.
I took the photos of the aluminum forearm '97 side-by-side with a 1943 produced '97 for comparison. I hope that I can get the photo sizing thing straight.
Model 1897 serial number 40935 was received in the warehouse on October 20th, 1897 verus 1909. Once again, this is another clear case where the information published by George Madis is woefully inaccurate.
Serial 40935 is listed as a 12-gauge, 32-inch barrel, Full choke. It was shipped (sold) on the same day it was received, Order no. 19914. There is no other information in the factory ledger, indicating it was a standard Field grade gun.
I do not believe that the use of aluminum became common until many years after your Model 1897 was manufactured.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bergtreffer
Well, darn. I pasted the URLs of my photos on imageshack, and I see now that there are only red X's with what I wrote. I followed the instructions on the sticky. What now?
Send the pictures to me (full size) at Win1885@msn.com and I will post them for you.0 -
Well, holy smokes. A first year production; I'll be darned.
OK, Bert H and thanks in advance. I shall send the photos to you.0 -
...let us try this: 0 -
That does not look like aluminum to me? 0
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