Winchester Records and Dates of Manufacture
I am curious about page 619 of Madis' "The Winchester Book" and its significance - if true - to collectors relying on data from the Cody records. In this book it states:
"The dates of manufacture have been compiled from records in the Winchester factory, at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center and in the possession of this writer. Most of the original factory records have been lost or destroyed, so the major source of correct dates have been records kept by inside contractors and transcripts made by Winchester employees from 1931 to 1933 by order of the Olin Corporation. Shortly after Olin purchased Winchester, this study was begun. After dates of manufacture were recorded for the study, the original records were destroyed. A later study of shipping dates was made by Olin, covering production from 1933 to 1976."
Does this not increase the possibility of error in the so-called original Winchester records at Cody and/or does it not diminish the quality of the data reflected by these re-created from Winchester contractors records and employees notes?
"The dates of manufacture have been compiled from records in the Winchester factory, at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center and in the possession of this writer. Most of the original factory records have been lost or destroyed, so the major source of correct dates have been records kept by inside contractors and transcripts made by Winchester employees from 1931 to 1933 by order of the Olin Corporation. Shortly after Olin purchased Winchester, this study was begun. After dates of manufacture were recorded for the study, the original records were destroyed. A later study of shipping dates was made by Olin, covering production from 1933 to 1976."
Does this not increase the possibility of error in the so-called original Winchester records at Cody and/or does it not diminish the quality of the data reflected by these re-created from Winchester contractors records and employees notes?
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Carl,
Go back to quote:I am curious about page 619 of Madis' "The Winchester Book" and its significance - if true - to collectors relying on data from the Cody records. In this book it states:
It is false. The Cody Firearms Museum has the original factory Polishing Room Serialization Record Books for nearly all of the Winchester Models that were serialized (or at least a portion of the records for some models)... something that Madis was completely unaware of. I have spent the better part of the last few years recording all of that information for a new Winchester serializtion book that I am working on.
In answer to your question... quote:Does this not increase the possibility of error in the so-called original Winchester records at Cody and/or does it not diminish the quality of the data reflected by these re-created from Winchester contractors records and employees notes?
The latter is the case (at least in my learned opinion). Not having seen what Madis had in his possession, or the so-called "inside contractors records and transcripts..." I can not speak to their explicit validity. That said, they apparently do not agree with the Polishing Room Serialization records, and those records do exist and are very authentic. The Polishing Room records are also in perfect lock step with the Warehouse Ledger books (which are used by Cody to create factory letters). Madis' serial number records do not agree with either set of the existing records.
Over the years I have found way too many errors in what Madis wrote, and as a result, I view much of what he wrote with a healthy does of salt.0 -
Is there another book on the market that would clarify any portion of the errors within the Madis book (since it is accepted as the gospel by many collectors)? If not, would there be any reference work(s) forthcoming that would clarify such errors (from the latest experts) knowing what we now know about the Winchester records (not just in regard to serialization)?
Thank you,
Carl0 -
Carl,
Yes, there is another book on the market that corrects the serialization errors Madis published. My good friend Larry Shennum and I just finished writing and editing the 2nd edition to our book reference book "The RED BOOK of WINCHESTER values An Investment Opportunity" It will be available in late December or early January. Edit: In this second edition, Chapter 6 lists the true "Antique" serial cut-offs numbers for each of the models that spanned the years 1898 and 1899, and it also has serialization tables that provide the year ending serial numbers for all of the collectable models (as derived from the Polishing Room records).
I have researched and written several articles that have been (and will be) published in "The Winchester Collector" magazine. Edit: In those articles, I do discuss the various types of markings, and when they were used. If you are a WACA member, the magazine is free. If you are not a member, please sign up for a membership.
In addition to the numerous articles that I have written, I am also in the process of writing a new reference book covering the Model 1885 in great detail, and I have started a new Winchester serialization reference book. Eventually, I will put together a short reference book covering the Models 1894(94), 55, and 64.
If you are looking for a "one book discusses all" (similar to Madis' "The Winchester Book") it is extremely doubtful that any one person will take on the monumental task of trying to do so. In my opinion, it is better that there are individual subject matter reference books that reveal many of Madis' errors. Herb Houze has written several, as has Ned Schwing and a few other authors. A truly good Winchester reference library consists of numerous titles.0 -
I understand what you are saying as I have an extensive library of over 3500 reference books; however only about 10 are Winchester specific, but many others include chapters or tidbits on various Winchesters. My desk is covered with books at any given time, so I am always looking for something that I can "quick draw" with some degree of certainty that I can find a quick resolution to a simple question. I am not interested in value guides as they are obsolete as soon as they are published. But it seems that something is seriously lacking in respect to what specific markings mean and their periods of use, much like the list(s) of inspectors available in various works for US arms inspectors over the years. We can approximately date many old martial guns simply by an inspector's initials or cartouche. It would be great if that happened with Winchesters. It appears there is a big void on the subject of markings and their meanings. 0 -
Can you comment on the reference work, "Winchester Lever Action Repeating Firearms : The Models of 1866, 1873 & 1876 (For Collectors Only)" by Arthur Pirkle? I am to receive this one shortly.
Also, in your WACA articles, are they compilations of guns observed with marks compared to what the Winchester records indicate and who may have been the inspectors and assemblers at the time of the markings (and how they relate) or are they simply observations and notations on the smorgasbord and variety in and of markings? In other words, when all are combined, will they simply be a synopsis or will they be a detailed analysis? Will they tell me anything other than, "I observed these marks on an 1885 Winchester and here are the photos to prove it"? Please forgive my directness.
Thank you,
Carl0 -
Hello Carl,
Art's book is considerably more detailed than Madis' books, but it still lacks all of the details that you are looking for. Additionally, Art carried forward some of the same errors that are found in Madis' books.
There is no verifiable information about the individual inspectors and assemblers... that information is most likely going to forever remain a mystery. My articles cover the various changes that were made to the caliber stamp markings, the upper tang roll stamps, the "W" marked guns, the steel type stamp, etc. My goal was to pin down the precise serial number range for each of the notable changes that were made to the subject models.
For the Model 1885, I discuss all of the various marking changes as well as the production changes that occurred. The inspection stamps are just noted as to what I have observed... or in your terms, a synopsis. Again, it is not possible to conduct and complete a detailed analysis of the inspection stamps, or who specifically applied them.0 -
Carrying forward the errors is not what I was wanting to hear, but I would have picked up on it soon enough though. I am less enthusiastic about receiving it now. But it will become book eleven dedicated to Winchesters and another resource in the ever-expanding black-hole I call my library. 0 -
No doubt you have Renneberg's second edition on the Model 94? 0 -
Yes, if you are refering to the book "Winchester Model 94 - A Century of Craftmanship". But I have not opened it in some time (I am concentrating on the Model '73). 0 -
BertH -- When is your book coming out? The Maadis stuff I have is worthless. When it hits the street you need to inform us here on G.B. so that we can get a copy. (I would like my copy to be autographed !) 0
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