just wondering TAP vs. PDX1 vs BLACK TALONS 45ACP
WAS LOOKING AT A FEW THREADS ELSEWHERE
and tap vs pdx1 came up,
i tossed in the mix the evil BLACK TALONS
what one out of the 3 would you think are better as PD rounds,
i found some PDX1 at WM for $22 thought that was a deal ,
as the gun shows had them for $30 and up.
talons were $50 and up.
i know the talons are around 20 years old and some say RANGERS took there place .
anyway what one would you use if all worked good in your gun.
gun in question is a XD45ACP
and tap vs pdx1 came up,
i tossed in the mix the evil BLACK TALONS
what one out of the 3 would you think are better as PD rounds,
i found some PDX1 at WM for $22 thought that was a deal ,
as the gun shows had them for $30 and up.
talons were $50 and up.
i know the talons are around 20 years old and some say RANGERS took there place .
anyway what one would you use if all worked good in your gun.
gun in question is a XD45ACP
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Whichever one happened to be the most accurate in my gun is the one I would use. Shoot them all and see for yourself. "Performance" is nothing if it doesn't go where it's supposed to. 0 -
Well, I'm *NOT* using Black Talons in my defense gun, for two big reasons. First, at this point the rounds are basically collector's pieces and they're too scarce and expensive to regularly practice with and/or use in this role.
If I had ANY good reason to believe these were actually more effective than any one of half a dozen other premium brands, then I **MIGHT* think about finding some and using them. . .but I don't.
Second and MUCH more important, because of their reputation (which is crazy, and completely out of proportion to their actual effectiveness) I wouldn't want to use Black Talons in a shooting incident where some overzealous prosecutor could try and paint my use of this ammo in a negative light.
Who knows what kind of BS stories about these rounds some gullible jury members have heard or might believe? If I'm going to have to shoot someone, the last thing I want to happen is to turn the incident into some kind of jury referendum on Black Talon ammo from the '80s.
Forget it.
I'll stick to "personal defense" labelled rounds by any major manufacturer. What kind? Whichever ones:
a. Will run my gun 100%, and
b. Are most readily available (with price counting next).
In this case, that's probably the Winchester ammo. But if I ran into a good deal on the TAP ammo, I'd use it (Or Federal. . .or Speer. . .or CorBon. . .etc).
Frankly, I believe that these sorts of rounds are generally more similar than different. A good hit from ANY of them will do what it needs to do, and a bad hit from ANY of them won't. So I don't worry too much about what type. If I had to shoot through body armor, or through car windshields, etc, then I might care more but I don't, and ultimately, I don't think it makes much difference.0 -
I HAD FOUND A DEAL ON a case of win white box a few years back and have shot about half the case and so far all worked well in all my 45acp guns. also saw some water test and they expanded well also.
was just wondering with all the new stuff out if just maybe some of the old stuff was as or just about as good.
i wouldn't want to be shot with any of them to start with.
i did find a link were the pdx1 didn't expand when shot through denim and water soaked paper jugs.
also picked up a box of talons for cheep last week, but was going to put them in my ammo collection, they look a little like the pdx1 but just black0 -
quote:
Second and MUCH more important, because of their reputation (which is crazy, and completely out of proportion to their actual effectiveness) I wouldn't want to use Black Talons in a shooting incident where some overzealous prosecutor could try and paint my use of this ammo in a negative light.
Who knows what kind of BS stories about these rounds some gullible jury members have heard or might believe? If I'm going to have to shoot someone, the last thing I want to happen is to turn the incident into some kind of jury referendum on Black Talon ammo from the '80s.
It is for this reason that many people claim to carry the same stuff the local law enforcement agencies issue...0 -
Winchester Silver Tips. They are the same thing as the Black Talons without the black coating. Next to that, I go Speer Gold Dot.
Best
EDIT 1
DCS and Bean,
I qualified that statement as the same thing, less the black coating. Even Winchester called them SXT Silvertip. Ever check out the Remington Golden Saber?0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
Winchester Silver Tips. They are the same thing as the Black Talons without the black coating. Next to that, I go Speer Gold Dot.
Best
Well, not to make too much of this, I'm pretty sure that the Winchester PDX-1 is the current iteration of the older Talon rounds (not the silvertips).
The original Talons lost the black coating and became the Ranger/SXT line. These went through several iterations with slight bullet changes (losing the pointy hooks on the bullet petals) and had different civilian/police versions marketed as "Talon" "Ranger" and "SXT" (Rumored "Same eXact Thing"). I think last year the bullets were redesigned again as the current PDX-1 rounds.
The Silvertips are also a soft-point defense-type bullet, but the bullets lack the bonded core that the PDX rounds have.
Does it matter? Well, if you're in the FBI and think you're going to have to shoot through car doors or windshields or other intermediate obstacles, then you'd want the bonded core bullet. If not. . .eh. . .I doubt its going to matter.
For what its worth, I happen to have 125 grain Winchester Silvertip .38+Ps in my carry gun right now. I'd just as soon use Gold Dots, Federal, Cor Bon, PDX-1, Ranger, Double-Tap, Hornady or any of the other premium +P type defense loads. I will skip the light target/practice loads for defense/carry, if given the choice.
If you look at the charts, they all push similar weight bullets at pretty close to the same velocities. Again, I just don't think slight differences in bullet construction are going to amount to much should I ever have to fire one in anger.
Edit: This is getting silly, but if you check out the Winchester website, the PDX-1 rounds and the Silvertips are different. The PDX-1 use the pre-scored jacketed bullet with bonded core, and the silvertip use a hollowpoint with a soft core. You can see the difference in the images on the website.
Here's the "infamous" Black Talon, along with three of the subsequent iterations (civilian and "police only"):
Now here is a picture of the Ranger (left) and the Winchester Super Elite PDX1 (right). Note the substantial similarity between these two and the above bullets:
And here is a picture of the Winchester Silvertip round. Note the solid (not bonded) core, and the minimal serrations on the jacket. Its just a different round:
Again, I'm not particularly convinced that there is any practical difference between the two but it seems clear to me that they're different bullets, and if you want that "Talon"/"SameXacThing" mystique, you'd want the PDX1 round.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
Winchester Silver Tips. They are the same thing as the Black Talons without the black coating. Next to that, I go Speer Gold Dot.
Best
Silver tips are NOT the samas Black Talons [:0]
Silver Tips were out long before the BT's.
Winchester Ranger is the Black Talon without the black coating [;)]0 -
My rule has always been...what ever load the firearm shoots accurately and will feed 200 Rds without a FTF or FTE...
I have known a few over the years that buy the load of the week, shoot a few rounds (cause they only bought one box) and then load it up and bet their lives on it.0 -
I don't think the bad guy you shoot is gonna care or know the difference...he will just be, hopefully, incapacitated before he can cause you or your family harm. Even a 230 FMJ 45 in the right spot will end the fight. 0 -
Between the three, you will probably see some differences in ballistic gel tests which have always been known as a poor representation of true performance. However in real world, you won't find a difference from one to another. Its way more important to see which one fires more reliably and accurately in YOUR individual particular gun, and what you can afford to shoot.
A hollow point isn't a magic bullet. Its whole point is to be a "semi-frangible" round that offers controlled penetration and reduced ricochet potential.
This is what you want to look for:
1. Reliability in YOUR gun.
2. Accuracy in YOUR gun.
3. Affordability and Availability.
4. Frangibility or penetration to your need.0 -
Ought to throw Hornady Critical Defense rounds into the mix. What I have read indicates more reliable opening than most of the hollow points. 0
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