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Rewelded rifle

9 on the floor
I talked to a man [not a dealer] at the Reno Gun show who had a rewelded H&R M14 rifle.
I realize there are no "good" rewelds, but my question is, even though the selector lug had been milled off does the fact that it had been a real M14 fall under the "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" rule? Or does a rewelded receiver not count?
The guy said the rifle was fully functional, but he had never shot it and would not reccommend shooting it.
Expensive wall-hanger, or NFA rifle??
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Comments

11 comments

Date Votes
  • wpage
    Good question for the ATF...
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  • Emmett Dunham
    This pops up now and then. You may be able to do a search and find a good amount of information on the subject. An M14 receiver is a machine gun! There was a Gentleman in the eighties that was taking cut M14 receivers and re-welding them and selling them with the lugs. He was arrested! There is non-thing wrong with a re welded receiver if the person doing the work knows what he is doing. Its when you find a rifle with out history for sale that you know non-thing about that gets people to back off. I have friends that have re welds that they have been shooting for years with out problems. The real answer to the questions that there are so many rifles around that are not re welded why buy a modified receiver rifle?


    Emmett


    Emmett
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  • mark christian
    Did you physically see this rifle or is this another of the common and nearly endless gun show stories that begin with: "I have this rifle/pistol/shotgun at home, I didn't bring it today, but it's (insert the story here)...."

    Okay, the receiver had to actually be destroyed, and by that I mean it was cut up into three pieces in three specific locations with 1/4" displacement between cuts. The three remaining pieces can then then modified in order to prevent any possibility of accepting any M14 parts that would allow selective fire. When that is done the receiver can then be welded back together and it is now considered to be a brand new receiver and not an M14 receiver. If this procedure was not followed and someone simply took a scrapped M14 receiver that was cut in half (as the Army used to do it 40 years ago) and welded it back together then that would be considered a machine gun. The key here is the concept of DESTROYED and the BATFE is very exacting about that.
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  • GuvamintCheese
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    Did you physically see this rifle or is this another of the common and nearly endless gun show stories that begin with: "I have this rifle/pistol/shotgun at home, I didn't bring it today, but it's (insert the story here)...."Okay, the receiver had to actually be destroyed, and by that I mean it was cut up into three pieces in three specific locations with 1/4" displacement between cuts. The three remaining pieces can then then modified in order to prevent any possibility of accepting any M14 parts that would allow selective fire. When that is done the receiver can then be welded back together and it is now considered to be a brand new receiver and not an M14 receiver. If this procedure was not followed and someone simply took a scrapped M14 receiver that was cut in half (as the Army used to do it 40 years ago) and welded it back together then that would be considered a machine gun. The key here is the concept of DESTROYED and the BATFE is very exacting about that.
    Man, you need to cut back on the caffiene.
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  • 9 on the floor
    Mark, I did physically see the rifle.
    The gentleman pointed out to me where the receiver had been welded, so I think you answered my question as he only indicated one spot. There may have been more, I didn't pursue it.

    I had no desire or intention to buy the rifle. I own a Springfield M1A and Thought that was what he had' so I asked him about it and he filled me in about it's history. I have no reason to believe he wasn't legit.

    I had never heard of a re-welded M14 before, and had no idea there were any out there. I was curious, So I asked the experts. Thanks.
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  • nmyers
    About 10-15 years ago a company named MKS sold rewelded USGI M14 receivers that had been cut in half. They removed the full auto lug, & did a good job of welding. They claimed that they had ATF approval, which turned out not to be the case. They sold several hundred of them.

    Eventually ATF found out about this business, & shut them down. They tracked down most of the owners & seized the receiver/rifle without compensation.

    There are still some rewelds out there, some rewelded by other companies. I've seen a couple offered at gun shows. If ATF catches you with one, they will confiscate it; no individuals have been arrested, but I don't want to be the test case; I hate prison food.

    Neal
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  • mark christian
    quote:Originally posted by 9 on the floor
    Mark, I did physically see the rifle.
    The gentleman pointed out to me where the receiver had been welded, so I think you answered my question as he only indicated one spot. There may have been more, I didn't pursue it.

    I had no desire or intention to buy the rifle. I own a Springfield M1A and Thought that was what he had' so I asked him about it and he filled me in about it's history. I have no reason to believe he wasn't legit.

    I had never heard of a re-welded M14 before, and had no idea there were any out there. I was curious, So I asked the experts. Thanks.


    Since you did see the rifle that leaves very little for conjecture, we now ahve the hard facts. As it sits right now that rifle would not be legal because a singe cut to the receiver does not destroy it and it would still be a considered machine gun. Even if the selector shaft were completely removed, the receiver was not destroyed and no modifications would change its status as a machinegun. There are in fact quite a few legally registered M14 rifles that are based on welded receivers and they do not carry the same stigma that welded M1 Garands have, mostly because there are relatively few M14s out there. The people who welded the scrapped M14 receivers and registered them were almost always licensed manufacturers who were Special Occupational Taxpayers who knew what they were doing so those guns always tend to work quite nicely. Tell that fellow not to bring that rifle to any more guns shows...He is taking a big risk!
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  • mark christian
    quote:Originally posted by nmyers
    About 10-15 years ago a company named MKS sold rewelded USGI M14 receivers that had been cut in half. They removed the full auto lug, & did a good job of welding. They claimed that they had ATF approval, which turned out not to be the case. They sold several hundred of them.

    Eventually ATF found out about this business, & shut them down. They tracked down most of the owners & seized the receiver/rifle without compensation.

    There are still some rewelds out there, some rewelded by other companies. I've seen a couple offered at gun shows. If ATF catches you with one, they will confiscate it; no individuals have been arrested, but I don't want to be the test case; I hate prison food.

    Neal


    I remember seeing them at the SHOT Show. They claimed that there receivers were the closest possible to M14 receivers and we soon found out the reason why they were so close!
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  • givette
    Sidenote: Reweld issue has been covered. And quite nicely, I must admit! But another tidbit..

    ATF frowns on any receiver that still has the cutout (in the OP-rod channel). The cutout is mid-point in the channel, and is designed to mate with the corresponding tab on the connector assembly.

    The receiver cutout is just as big a no-no as the selector boss on the receiver. Joe
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  • mark christian
    quote:Originally posted by givette
    Sidenote: Reweld issue has been covered. And quite nicely, I must admit! But another tidbit..

    ATF frowns on any receiver that still has the cutout (in the OP-rod channel). The cutout is mid-point in the channel, and is designed to mate with the corresponding tab on the connector assembly.

    The receiver cutout is just as big a no-no as the selector boss on the receiver. Joe


    Very true and an excellent point (which you are well known for making).

    Unless they were in the US military during the 1960s, or happen to have a rich shooting buddy with an M14, most folks have never seen an actual M14 receiver. The picture in the mind is usually of one of the M1A types, which are in fact actually based on the M1 Garand and altered sufficiently so as not to allow any of the M14 select fire parts to be installed, which of course includes the connector.

    Here are a couple of photos, and since I am always 100% honest with you guys; this is NOT my rifle [:(], although I wish that it was!!!


    You can see the selector shaft as well as the the connector assembly:
    [img][/img]M14.jpg

    Here you can see the cut out in the operating rod channel that givette warned about.
    [img][/img]M14seelctor.jpg

    If memory serves me; that is one of the specific locations the BATFE insists on for one of the three torch cuts in order to render an M14 receiver totally destroyed.
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  • 9 on the floor
    Thanks for all the information, guys.
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