Cape Gun help
I made a post a couple days ago asking for help on a cape gun. I have finally taken all the pics I believe neccessary to help experts like yourselves identify what it is I have. Below are pics of every marking I could find plus some extra shots just in case it helps. I'm looking to sell it but I need to know specifics like caliber, year, model, make, and of course what one thinks the value of a piece like this would be. Of course if there's anything I can do to help you make decision, please tell me. Any help would be appreciated.
Barrel
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Top of Barrel
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Top of Barrel II
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Bottom of Barrel
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Bottom of Barrel II
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Stock (Where barrel latches to stock)
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Stock - Side
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Stock - Top
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Stock - Bottom
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Stock - Side - Open
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Gun - Full Shot
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Barrel
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Top of Barrel
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Top of Barrel II
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Bottom of Barrel
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Bottom of Barrel II
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Stock (Where barrel latches to stock)
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Stock - Side
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Stock - Top
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Stock - Bottom
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Stock - Side - Open
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Gun - Full Shot
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In your photo of the proofs on the bottom of the barrels. The bottom barrel is the shotgun barrel. It's 16 Gauge, the proofs are for choked barrels. The top barrel is the rifle, with the "Crown G" proof being the one used for rifled barrels. The caliber appears to be 11 X 52mm. Since their are no "Crown N" nitro proof marks it appears that both barrels have been proofed for only low pressure Black Powder loads. The 11 X 52 is probably some obsolete late 19th Century BP cartridge.
Being a obsolete BP Cape Gun from the late 19th Century it would have little collector value in the States. Much more likely to bring top buck back in the fatherland, where it was liberated from by our guys during and after the war.0 -
Hello the Crown over G looks like first black powder proof for rifle barrel . the Crown over U is an inspection mark .Crown over W is choke bored shotgun barrel.Shot barrel is 16 Ga.the proof mark that is repeated a number of times the clearest and deepest just over the Crown U is one I cant identify but most likely just an inspection at different stages of construction and could stand for the city it was proofed /inspected.. The 1831 most likely the date it was finished proofed. Jan 8th 1931 Now as to the 67/49 and the 11X52 both of these COULD be the size of the rifle Cartridge but neither set of numbers relate to any current or obsolete European Black powder or Smokeless Cartridge. that I can find. so that is a question mark for me Hope this helps as I stated before a Black powder proof not a N for nitro /smokeless powder and question on what caliber the rifle barrel is will really reduce the value of this high quality Pre WWII Cape Gun . Please come back here and let us know when you place the auction to sell with the ITEM # and it would be super nice if you would send an email to each person that you feel has helped you .all you have to do is double click on their user name. 0 -
I have a copy of the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken catalog from 1904 that lists literally hundred of (now obsolete) German and central European cartridges from that period and there is no 11 X 52mm cartridge shown. This catalog is not the final word by any means, but if a cartridge is not listed in that guide then it must be rather unusual. It could be based on the old Belgian 11mm Albini military round which was of similar dimensions, rimmed and could function correctly. 0 -
There is a very obscure round 11x52r, a black powder round that fired also in some dutch military rifles. If indeed it is a 11x52r which a chamber cast can determine it will lessen the value considerably. makes sense , Cape gun and being a dutch round, South Africa.I am not so sure on the 1931 date the action and caliber are too old for that era but that is of less importance here, the caliber of the rifle is going to set the price. Try a 45auto cartridge at the muzzle it should allow the bullet to just go in but stop at the case neck if it is a 11mm.
Does the rifle trigger, set, (click) when pushed from behind gently?0 -
So if you guys had questions about this stuff who would you go to? Because I've yet the see a definitive answer as to what all the markings mean (caliber, year, make, model). What ballpark do you think we're talking about? Just throw a number out there. I don't want to start an auction yet because I just don't know enough about it. I put an email in to the jaeger@valley.net email from the bobsguns website (one that perry recommended) but have yet to hear back. If I wanted to take my search farther, do you guys know of any notable experts anywhere? I mean, with today's technolody I don't guess I have to be there in person for them to take a look. Any names, emails, numbers, etc...would be appreciated. Anything to help me continue my search. Thanks so all who responded! I know more than I did. It's just, with the clashing of opinion and me not knowing my right from my left in regard to this, I don't know what to think after reading all the posts. So, if it were your gun, where/who would you turn to? Thanks! 0 -
jcbrown23602,
From the water table:
Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law 'grandfathered' these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or 'on hand'. Any German gun or Rifle carrying a crown-over-V dates to 1891 or earlier.
Crown over 'S' is for the shotgun barrel denoting smoothbore along with the crown over 'W' for choked as noted earlier.
The 67/49 is the reference to the barrel gauge of the rifle. This number is listed as being 67/49 or 0.410" for the bore diameter not the groove.
"A brief table that is pretty helpful for pre-WWI German rifles shows the use of fractional 'gauge' numbers for barrel diameters. This was largest plug gauge diameter that would fit in the bore. The British proof law of 1868 had set up standard gauge sizes from .300" (172.28 gauge) to .450" (51.05 gauge) in .010" increments in the same sense that a shotgun bore is gauged, by the number of round lead balls of that diameter that make a pound. The Germans adopted this somewhat awkward system as well."
From Municion.org:
11 x 52R Beaumont
The bullet diameter is listed as being 0.452" which falls into the relationship of the gauge system above. Ammunition was loaded by DWM.
Best.0 -
Post to the the double gun journal's forums, if your not happy with our efforts. Any way you slice it not going to made a difference though. You have a obsolete, 119? year old, black powder, wall hanger, cape gun, chambered for a virtually unobtainable cartridge. The only place where it would have any substantial value would be back in Germany where it was lifted from by a G.I. Most likely your going to have to go through a U.S. based dealer to sell it back there. 0 -
We have surely had a lot of guys dissatisfied with assistance from the members this weekend. Must be something in the water.
Depending on your location you can request a professional appraisal from either of these two firms, both of which have tremendous experience in these types of firearms. Unlike the forum members, who have so far disappointed you, these guys don't work for free so be prepared to have your credit card ready.
http://www.montywhitley.com/specials/
http://elephantandcastle.biz/appraisals.php
I have to add that even with the highest quality photos (and yours are just average) it is not always possible to identify a firearm without a hands on examination as there are certain fine points of detail that can identify a specific custom gun maker on sight. The markings/stampings are in fact better suited to establishing what the gun is not rather than what it is. I hope that it turns out to worth a ton of cash.0 -
Gents,
I'm sorry if it sounds like I was/am disappointed. That's actually quite far from the case. I even called up my buddy who's in on this with me excited about all the new stuff I know about from you guys last night. It's just, it isn't mine. My friend is asking me to sell it for him and I'm just trying to find out everything I can so that I can make the best decisions for the auction so that he gets what is fair and doesn't feel like I didn't do enough to figure out what it's worth. I'm so sorry guys. I am very very thankful for everything you have done for me.
I guess my final question is, what do you think something like this would be worth? If I had my FFL, would I be able to ship it to someone in Germany if they wanted to buy it? Don't think you are going to hurt my feelings one bit if the price you give me is low. It's not mine. [:)]0
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