NAA mini-revolver in Belt Buckle
I purchased this items from an FFL. I was told my my local dealer that it is defined by federal law (BATF regs) as an AOW. When purchased without a permit requirement, I believed it to be nothing more than a holster..open carry when not covered by shirt/jacket, concealed carry if you wear a T-shirt outside the waist of your pants. Can anyone point me to a web-site or cite law/regs location (i.e.: 'U.S.C. Section**, Paragraph **) that I could research?
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IF the gun can be fired WITHOUT removing it from the holster then he MAY be right. The only holster I am aware of for them has a button you hit that releases the gun to be used = 100% legal. If there is one that somehow can be fired then it MIGHT fit the definition of a AOW, but I could not say without seeing.
The holsters for these guns that made them look like a wallet to be carried in your back pocket that can be fired WITHOUT removing them from the holster are in fact AOW's.0 -
Nwcid,
your response does makes some sense to me..as the wallet-holster actually CONCEALS the weapon while it is handled,...such a weapon can be aimed/employed without the target being aware. That would be very bad for an LEO asking for your ID...0 -
quote:Originally posted by easygo6
Nwcid,
your response does makes some sense to me..as the wallet-holster actually CONCEALS the weapon while it is handled,...such a weapon can be aimed/employed without the target being aware. That would be very bad for an LEO asking for your ID...
It has NOTHING to do with being concealed. It has to do with the definition of a pistol
Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. ? 479.11, "pistol" is defined as:
. a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
Since in my example above the gun can be fired from the holster it no longer meets the definition of pistol since it no longer has a " (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)". If you put it in the same size and shape of holster but you were not able to fire it IN the holster then it would just be a Pistol and holster.
Same example can go for pen guns. IF the pen gun can be fired while straight it is an AOW. IF it has to be turned in the middle giving it a "grip" it is a Pistol.
So back to your original question about the holster. Would your gun still meet the definition of pistol in the belt buckle?0 -
i have one of the originals. can't be fired when in the buckle, so its a pistol. open carry is legal in kansas, but it's a grey area because the gun must be clearly recognized as a gun and this could be confused as a regular old belt buckle.
(there are pocket holsters that the gun can be fired in and those are AOW)
for the belt buckle gun if you have a concealed permit you're safe either way, but might want to check with local LEO just to be sure how they'll treat it.
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Actually, it falls under the definition of AOW. If something is DISGUISED, or made to where it does not LOOK LIKE A GUN, is when this applies. The "wallet" holsters meet this criteria. Think about any of the pager or celphone guns that have appeared on the internet or in movies, but i'm not so sure they exist in real life. It is the act of disguising it that makes it into an AOW. 0 -
Jeffb got it right; it is an AOW.
See FFL Newsletter, August 1997, page 5, WALLET GUNS.
Neal0 -
quote:Originally posted by jeffb1911
Actually, it falls under the definition of AOW. If something is DISGUISED, or made to where it does not LOOK LIKE A GUN, is when this applies. The "wallet" holsters meet this criteria. Think about any of the pager or celphone guns that have appeared on the internet or in movies, but i'm not so sure they exist in real life. It is the act of disguising it that makes it into an AOW.
Confusing disguise with concealment here. If the firearm 'at the moment of discharge' is disguised as something else (wallet gun, cane gun, etc), then AOW.
If, at the moment of discharge, it is in plain sight as, and used as, an [ATF defined-see above] handgun, then it is not an AOW.
How the user chooses to carry the handgun while concealed (permit may be needed) is not covered by any law binding to the public. Joe
EDIT-sidenote
In NYC, permit to carry stipulates 'firearm must be concealed from casual observation'. So, the belt buckle pistol, without being covered by something, is open carry of a pistol, and is in violation of NYC pistol regs. Perhaps the same applies with pistol permits in other jurisdictions. Can't speak for others. Joe0 -
I got my answer, my belt buckle holster is a holster...for concealed carry. Don't think I would want to test "open carry" because it could be construed as disguised.
Thank you.0 -
Here is the text from the Newsletter, http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-1997-08.pdf
WALLET GUNS
ATF has received numerous inquiries regarding
wallet guns and wallet holsters.
As defined in section 5845(e) of the National
Firearms Act (NFA), the term "any other weapon"
includes certain concealable weapons. Various
types of disguised weapons such as cane guns, belt
buckle guns, and briefcase guns (with remote
control firing mechanisms) fall within the "any
other weapon" category. It is unlawfil to make,
possess, or transfer such firearms without
complying with the provisions of the NFA.
During the 1970's, ATF determined that various
small handguns combined with certain "wallet
holsters" fall into the "any other weapon" category
and are subject to the provisions of the NFA.
These wallet holsters are generally rectangular in
shape, are designed to disguise the appearance of
the handgun, and are designed to allow the weapon
to be fired while it is contained within the wallet.
The handgun combined with the wallet holster
constitutes an NFA firearm.
5
A conventional pistol or revolver which is
possessed without the wallet holster would not be
an NFA firearm. A wallet holster alone is not
subject to NFA controls and cannot be registered
or transferred a- a firearm. Firearms contained in
conventional holsters, trouser pockets, purses,
gun cases, or various other forms of carrying
cases have not been determined to fall within the
definition of an "any other weapon," even though
it maybe possible to discharge a firearm while it
is carried in such a manner.
In order for an individual to lawfully "make" a
wallet gun, that is to say, acquire both the
handgun and the wallet holster, the person must
first submit an Application to Make and Register
a Firearm (ATF Form 1), pay a $200.00 making
tmq and receive approval of the application. The
serial number appearing on the handgun should
be used to register the firearm. Transfer of a
wallet gun requires an approved transfer
application and payment of a $5 transfer tax. A
transfer will not be approved unless the wallet
gun has been registered to the transferor.
Mere sale or possession of the wallet holster
without the handgun is not a violation of the
NFA. However, 18 U.S.C. section 2 provides that
a person who aids or abets another person in the
commission of an offense is also responsible for
the offense. Therefore, sale or distribution of a
wallet holster with knowledge that it will be used
to make an unregistered NFA firearm may also
place the seller or distributor of the holster in
violation of the NFA.
I agree most AOW's dont look like traditional firearms which is WHY they are AOW. So by definition most guns that are AOW should not look like "guns" because if they did they would look like other defined firearms and as such NOT be AOW's.
I disagree with Jeff and nmyers. It is NOT the disguising of the gun that makes a gun an AOW. It is the fact that it does NOT fit any other definition of a Firearm.
Givette is right, as I stated before. IF the firearm (being a NON NFA firearm) has to be removed from the "case/holster/ect" then it it is NOT an NFA item. Example carry a HK SP89 in a brief case = Pistol. Carry an HK SP89 in a brief case where the gun can be fired without removing it from the case = AOW. NAA in a holster = pistol. NAA in a holster that can be shot without removal = AOW.
Carrying the gun on your belt buckle is NO different then carrying it strong side open. SInce the gun CAN NOT be fired while in the buckle it is NOT an NFA item.0 -
Its NOT an AOW, but carrying in a belt buckle is intrinsically problematic.
So if OPEN carry is illegal, you can't legally carry that way.
If CONCEALED carry is illegal, you can't legally carry that way.
You're OK to carry this way if (and only if) you're legally allowed to carry either open OR concealed, or alternatively, if you make sure the entire belt buckle is covered at all times (eg by a long coat or other garment).0
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