+P .38 ammo
I recently acquired a S&W Model 60 snubbie from a friend who is retired from the FBI. Along with the revolver he gave me two boxes of ammo. One box of Federal Premium .38 Special High Velocity (+P+) 147 Gr. HYDRA-SHOK JHP , and a box of Winchester .38 Special +P+ 147 gr. JHP, marked: FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY NOT FOR RETAIL SALE.
My question is this stuff safe to shoot in the Model 60( date of manufacture 1974-1978), and my Model 36 ( date of manufacture 1973).
Thanks ahead of time for any information
My question is this stuff safe to shoot in the Model 60( date of manufacture 1974-1978), and my Model 36 ( date of manufacture 1973).
Thanks ahead of time for any information
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ltcdoty,
Personally, I would not do it. The Newer models that are designed for 357, would be OK, but the older models are not even +P marked. Most all of the newer S&W 38 Special revolvers, are marked +p, but not +P+. For its intended purpose, the regular 38 Special ammo should do just fine anyway. I would reserve the 38 Special +P+ for use in a 357 Magnum chambered revolver, or at least a 38 on the N frame.
Best
quote:Its interesting that this ammo was issued by the FBI to these guys, I guess I'll shoot it in my .357
Is it really? The FBI is just an employer. He along with any one else is just a number. Just like any employer, they don't give a damn if you get your face blowed off, as long as it was not them. In fact, if it didn't kill you, they would probably reprimand you, or fire you, as it must have been something you done wrong...not the ammo they issued to you.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
ltcdoty,
Personally, I would not do it. The Newer models that are designed for 357, would be OK, but the older models are not even +P marked. Most all of the newer S&W 38 Special revolvers, are marked +p, but not +P+. For its intended purpose, the regular 38 Special ammo should do just fine anyway. I would reserve the 38 Special +P+ for use in a 357 Magnum chambered revolver, or at least a 38 on the N frame.
Best
Its interesting that this ammo was issued by the FBI to these guys, I guess I'll shoot it in my .3570 -
The ammo wasn't necessarily issued; they may have bought it on their own.
At one time the FBI permitted only the use of .38 special. My gun dealer (a retired agent) sold handloads to many of them for duty use, & he loaded them far above the loading handbook specs for .38 special. When your life depends upon your gun, folks sometimes push the envelope.
If you're not familiar with the procedure for evaluating a revolver's condition, it might be wise to have a gunsmith check it out.
I'm with tsr; stick with the ammo the gun was designed for.
Neal0 -
I was given some of the same similar ammo and I most definately would not be using a lot of it in an older non +p rated snubbie. It's pretty stout--I've shot it out of my Taurus .38 which is rated for +p and a .357 snub. For occasional use or self defense it probably would be fine. I saw your posting on the S&W forum and as with the advice there and here I would use the ammo sparingly in your snubs--or just use the heck out of it in a .357 Mag. 0 -
The topic of +P ammo in Smith J frame .38s comes up all the time. You're asking about +P+ ammo, which is a bit different.
Speaking only for myself I have no reservations firing .38 +P (NOT +P+) ammo though my own (non +P rated) all steel model 60 and 36 J-frame guns, have done so many times in the past with no apparent wear or other issues to the guns, and in fact ONLY carry these guns with +P ammo for "serious" purposes.
I've come to this opinion after quite a bit of inquiry into the subject. My reasoning is as follows:
a. +P type ammo existed LONG before ANY guns were rated "+P". The ammo didn't blow up ordinary quality all-steel guns back in the 50s and 60s. Why should the same ammo do so now?
b. Despite the popular perception, +P ammo isn't really that much more powerful than ordinary .38 special (max operating pressure of 20,000 PSI for .38+P vs 17,000 PSI for .38 special). Note that industry standard is that all guns are supposed to survive testing with proof loads of 30% greater pressure than usual. In my opinion, a gun that can't handle +P ammo safely probably isn't strong enough to handle ordinary non +P ammo safely either. Also, as reference, note that .357 magnum operates safely at 35,000 PSI.
c. All steel Smith J-frame revolvers are actually quite strong. Supposedly, because of the cylinder-stop cuts in K-frame cylinders, the minimum chamber wall thickness in J-frame revolvers is actually greater than that in K-frame guns.
Obviously, its not a good idea to try this, but along these lines, anecdotally, I've heard of people pushing .38s WAY past +P pressures near .357 magnum-like pressures and firing them safely in Smith J-frames. Also, supposedly at one point in the distant past, Smith actually did manufacture a limited run of (pre +P lableling era) J-frame revolvers in .357 magnum. If I remember right, they were intended for use by US post office. I doubt these pre+P era guns could hold up to a steady diet of full .357 magnums, but if the basic platform can stand up to ANY amount of .357s, it should be safe with a few +Ps at just over half the operating pressure.
e. Anecdotally, Smith and Wesson itself advises that +P ammo is OK in limited amount in non +P rated revolvers (or at least used to say that at one point).
Now we get to the topic of +P+ ammo, which is what you have.
Supposedly +P+ ammo was created with the intent of providing a sort of .357 magnum-lite round for police agencies that couldn't issue their officers evil "magnum" rounds for political correctness reasons.
Note that there is no SAAMI spec for +P+ ammo; its hard to know what pressures these actually operate at. I've heard that .38 +P+ from Federal operates at 22,000PSI, making it about 10% more powerful than .38+P, and about 30% more powerful than ordinary .38 special ammo.
Obviously, if the FBI issued this ammo to its agents, it couldn't have felt that the ammo would be intrinsically unsafe or was likely to damage the weapons. I know as a fact that some police officers used to carry +P+ duty ammo concealed in Smith J-frames.
That said, I've also heard anecdotally about cases of cracked forcing cones from long-term use of +P+ .38 ammo in steel J-frame revolvers. The forcing cones are fairly thin on Smith J-frames, and this would be a likely point of failure.
Bottom line for me? In my opinion, a **FEW** +P+ rounds probably won't damage your .38 J frame, and personally, I wouldn't have a problem reserving a few rounds for carry or "serious" use. Again, if it were me, I wouldn't really get upset if during a critical life-or-death shooting incident, I loosened up the guns timing, or cracked the forcing cone on my gun.
But for general practice? No, I'd avoid doing that in older guns with +P+ rounds. Its probably just wiser to keep the +P+ stuff for use in larger frame, or .357 magnum guns, where its unlikely to cause any problems at all.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
The topic of +P ammo in Smith J frame .38s comes up all the time. You're asking about +P+ ammo, which is a bit different.
Speaking only for myself I have no reservations firing .38 +P (NOT +P+) ammo though my own (non +P rated) all steel model 60 and 36 J-frame guns, have done so many times in the past with no apparent wear or other issues to the guns, and in fact ONLY carry these guns with +P ammo for "serious" purposes.
I've come to this opinion after quite a bit of inquiry into the subject. My reasoning is as follows:
a. +P type ammo existed LONG before ANY guns were rated "+P". The ammo didn't blow up ordinary quality all-steel guns back in the 50s and 60s. Why should the same ammo do so now?
b. Despite the popular perception, +P ammo isn't really that much more powerful than ordinary .38 special (max operating pressure of 20,000 PSI for .38+P vs 17,000 PSI for .38 special). Note that industry standard is that all guns are supposed to survive testing with proof loads of 30% greater pressure than usual. In my opinion, a gun that can't handle +P ammo safely probably isn't strong enough to handle ordinary non +P ammo safely either. Also, as reference, note that .357 magnum operates safely at 35,000 PSI.
c. All steel Smith J-frame revolvers are actually quite strong. Supposedly, because of the cylinder-stop cuts in K-frame cylinders, the minimum chamber wall thickness in J-frame revolvers is actually greater than that in K-frame guns.
Obviously, its not a good idea to try this, but along these lines, anecdotally, I've heard of people pushing .38s WAY past +P pressures near .357 magnum-like pressures and firing them safely in Smith J-frames. Also, supposedly at one point in the distant past, Smith actually did manufacture a limited run of (pre +P lableling era) J-frame revolvers in .357 magnum. If I remember right, they were intended for use by US post office. I doubt these pre+P era guns could hold up to a steady diet of full .357 magnums, but if the basic platform can stand up to ANY amount of .357s, it should be safe with a few +Ps at just over half the operating pressure.
e. Anecdotally, Smith and Wesson itself advises that +P ammo is OK in limited amount in non +P rated revolvers (or at least used to say that at one point).
Now we get to the topic of +P+ ammo, which is what you have.
Supposedly +P+ ammo was created with the intent of providing a sort of .357 magnum-lite round for police agencies that couldn't issue their officers evil "magnum" rounds for political correctness reasons.
Note that there is no SAAMI spec for +P+ ammo; its hard to know what pressures these actually operate at. I've heard that .38 +P+ from Federal operates at 22,000PSI, making it about 10% more powerful than .38+P, and about 30% more powerful than ordinary .38 special ammo.
Obviously, if the FBI issued this ammo to its agents, it couldn't have felt that the ammo would be intrinsically unsafe or was likely to damage the weapons. I know as a fact that some police officers used to carry +P+ duty ammo concealed in Smith J-frames.
That said, I've also heard anecdotally about cases of cracked forcing cones from long-term use of +P+ .38 ammo in steel J-frame revolvers. The forcing cones are fairly thin on Smith J-frames, and this would be a likely point of failure.
Bottom line for me? In my opinion, a **FEW** +P+ rounds probably won't damage your .38 J frame, and personally, I wouldn't have a problem reserving a few rounds for carry or "serious" use. Again, if it were me, I wouldn't really get upset if during a critical life-or-death shooting incident, I loosened up the guns timing, or cracked the forcing cone on my gun.
But for general practice? No, I'd avoid doing that in older guns with +P+ rounds. Its probably just wiser to keep the +P+ stuff for use in larger frame, or .357 magnum guns, where its unlikely to cause any problems at all.
I appreciate everyones input. I think I will just shoot it in my .357.
I remember way back in the 1970s, my department issued SuperVels,and we used to shoot them in our S&W snubbies at the range. I wonder how dangerous that was!0 -
quote:Originally posted by ltcdoty
I remember way back in the 1970s, my department issued SuperVels,and we used to shoot them in our S&W snubbies at the range. I wonder how dangerous that was!
Most probably perfectly safe.
With dozens of officers involved, and thousands of rounds put downrange, did anyone EVER have any issues?
"Supervels" were probably just .38+P loads, which again, are probably NOT much more powerful than ordinary .38 special loads.
Note that .38+P loads are DESIGNED to be fired from any .38 in good working condition. Also note that the .38 special is a black-powder era cartridge, hence its relatively low operating pressure at 17,000 PSI. Safe operating pressures on modern guns are MUCH higher.0
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