SKS: Mark on unfired primer #2 (re-opened).
I'm re-opening this because I have something to add.
First of all, the safety on SKS rifles only blocks the trigger; it does NOT block motion of the firing pin!
In other words, it is generally NOT considered safe to carry SKS rifles in condition one with a live round in the chamber and the safety engaged ie ("cocked and locked").
If you're going to carry a loaded SKS rifle, its probably safest to carry it "Israeli" style with a loaded mag and empty chamber.
Note that this issue is somewhat independent of the floating firing pin issue.
"Slam fires" where a protruding/stuck firing pin sets off a round ON CHAMBERING it, are relatively common in SKS rifles. The same thing *can* happen in AK-derivative rifles too, though its less common.
This can happen from dirt or corrosion in the firing pin channel, cosmoline left over from storage (in, for example, surplus Yugo SKS rifles that have not been properly taken down and cleaned before being put back into service), and also from a take-down where the triangular cross-section firing pin was accidentally re-assembled upside down, then jams in place.
Note also that if the firing pin is truly locked forward, not only will it set off a round on chambering, it can then automatically set off EVERY round it chambers (ie instantly go full auto) until either the gun is empty, jams, or the firing pin breaks loose.
As mentioned in the last thread, the best way to prevent this is to make sure the firing pin channel is clean and **SLIGHTLY** lubed (and of course to make sure it can move freely on re-assembly).
As a more permanent and durable solution, its possible to retrofit a free-floating SKS firing pin with a spring loaded one that essentially prevents this problem.
First of all, the safety on SKS rifles only blocks the trigger; it does NOT block motion of the firing pin!
In other words, it is generally NOT considered safe to carry SKS rifles in condition one with a live round in the chamber and the safety engaged ie ("cocked and locked").
If you're going to carry a loaded SKS rifle, its probably safest to carry it "Israeli" style with a loaded mag and empty chamber.
Note that this issue is somewhat independent of the floating firing pin issue.
"Slam fires" where a protruding/stuck firing pin sets off a round ON CHAMBERING it, are relatively common in SKS rifles. The same thing *can* happen in AK-derivative rifles too, though its less common.
This can happen from dirt or corrosion in the firing pin channel, cosmoline left over from storage (in, for example, surplus Yugo SKS rifles that have not been properly taken down and cleaned before being put back into service), and also from a take-down where the triangular cross-section firing pin was accidentally re-assembled upside down, then jams in place.
Note also that if the firing pin is truly locked forward, not only will it set off a round on chambering, it can then automatically set off EVERY round it chambers (ie instantly go full auto) until either the gun is empty, jams, or the firing pin breaks loose.
As mentioned in the last thread, the best way to prevent this is to make sure the firing pin channel is clean and **SLIGHTLY** lubed (and of course to make sure it can move freely on re-assembly).
As a more permanent and durable solution, its possible to retrofit a free-floating SKS firing pin with a spring loaded one that essentially prevents this problem.
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Previous post by me:
quote:"The manuals for the civilian M1A's (and some written articles on the M1) stress stripping the round from the rifles' own storage area vice directly inputting a round into the chamber. They both have free-float pins.
Never did the 'pin test' on my M1/M1A's but, as far back as Vietnam, I noticed the little dimple on the M16. I use the forward assist now, and 'walk' the bolt home on my civvy AR
I performed the 'pin test' on my M1A..magazine with ten rounds, and chambered the top round by releasing the bolt catch, and letting the bolt fly home. (Ammo was Vietnam era Ball M80-Headstamp WRA + 66)
No Evidence Of Primer Strike
Best, Joe0 -
It is quite extreme to say that you don't carry the SKS with a round in the chamber. This rifle has been used in conflict world wide in many army's and I am sure that the made sure that had a round in the chamber when they were on patrol. This type of weapon as many construed in this style could go of if the butt plate is slammed into the deck with a round in the chamber releasing the hammer from the sear. To think that this rifle is going to go off with a round in the chamber with normal handling is a bit far fetched. Even dropping the rifle there have to be a certain amount of testing to make sure there is a limit to it going off. I would think riflemen would refuse to use the rifle or exchange it on the battle field for another. The only thing that is going to set a round of is the firing pin struck by the hammer, no other way. There would be a lot of questions in my mind if someone ask a group solders to make sure that the chamber empty when starting a patrol and when the fire fight is over told to unload the chamber of the rifle. The safety in combat is pointing it that direction, you put the safety on and forget to take it off one time, good bye!
Walking around on the range with a round in the chamber is not a good idea with any rifle. Not cleaning a rifle with a floating firing pin is not a good idea. Cracking walnuts with the butt end of the SKS is not a good idea.
Emmett0 -
quote:Originally posted by Emmett Dunham
It is quite extreme to say that you don't carry the SKS with a round in the chamber.
Yes it is; I realize that.
I probably shouldn't have said its "generally considered unsafe" to carry this way since I don't know of any regulations/recommendations made by manufacturers or national or international organizations on the topic. Instead that it "may" be considered unsafe, etc.
And to be clear, I'm not saying you NEVER keep a round chambered; obviously you have to do that when using the gun or expecting to have to use it imminently.
I'm saying with this particular gun more than others, its best practice not to keep a round chambered unless absolutely necessary.
quote: This rifle has been used in conflict world wide in many army's and I am sure that the[y] made sure that had a round in the chamber when they were on patrol. This type of weapon as many construed in this style could go of if the butt plate is slammed into the deck with a round in the chamber releasing the hammer from the sear. To think that this rifle is going to go off with a round in the chamber with normal handling is a bit far fetched.
Of course during war or emergency, you do what you have to do.
The issue with guns going off if dropped, is a little different than the slam fire issue. The point is that SKS rifles generally come from the factory with negative trigger systems that may not be entirely jar-resistant. Couple that with a safety that doesn't actually lock the sear or firing pin in place, and you could get a "jar-fire" where a serious jolt knocks the hammer loose causing the gun to fire with the safety engaged. This problem is worse with some models/versions and in some individual guns than in others.
So that's the reason why you should avoid carrying a live round unless necessary.
Will the gun DEFINITELY go off if you drop it? Of course not. More likely than not it won't, and in fact, with most of them, its fairly unlikely that it will happen. But it only has to happen one time to really ruin your day!
But I'm not making this up. This is a recognized potential defect with these guns, for example:
quote:Recall notice:
CHINESE, IMPORTED BY NAVY ARMS
MODEL SKS, SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLES,
WARNING: We hereby provide written notice to you that some Chinese SKS semiautomatic rifles may pose a serious risk of bodily injury or death.
Some of these rifles may have a manufacturing defect of the engaging surfaces in the trigger-hammer-sear assembly, which can cause intermittent failure of the sear to hold the hammer in a cocked position. This condition can result in the unexpected firing as a round is chambered, without pulling the trigger, or if the weapon is jarred or dropped. This condition may also result in sudden and unexpected automatic fire and loss of control of the firing weapon.
Navy Arms Company strongly recommends that owners of Chinese SKS rifles have their weapons inspected for this defect by a competent and qualified gunsmith before using the weapon.
If you own a Chinese SKS semiautomatic rifle from Navy Arms Company and believe your weapon needs a new sear, mail your sear with the serial number of your SKS to us at the address below, and include a self-addressed envelope. We will send you a free replacement sear.
When firing any semiautomatic weapon for the first time, always follow these safety procedures:
Load two rounds into the magazine, and in a stable shooting position, with the muzzle pointed down range, pull the charging handle (or slide) back and let it fly forward to chamber the first round. Do not ease the carrier or the slide into battery. If the weapon fires, cease firing immediately. If no firing occurs, aim the weapon down range and pull the trigger. If both rounds fire with one pull of the trigger, cease firing immediately. Take your weapon to the gunsmith or the place of purchase for repair.
The safety procedures identified above are from the Navy Arms Company Shooting Maintenance Manual distributed to its SKS purchasers. For a free copy of the manual, please send a self-addressed, stamped business-size envelope with the serial number of your SKS.
Remember, always follow all firearms safety practices.
Navy Arms Company, Inc.
689 Bergen Boulevard
Ridgefield, NJ 07657
quote:I would think riflemen would refuse to use the rifle or exchange it on the battle field for another.
Well, that would probably be true if ANY shaking or jarring of the gun was likely to cause them to go off. Clearly, the vast majority of them are not THAT bad.
But in general, I have to disagree a bit here.
First of all, the whole point of the SKS rifle is that it is cheap but rugged (ie even cheaper than the already-cheap and rugged AK). That's the biggest reason why it was used and still occasionally gets used in combat.
Consequently, in virtually all of the conflicts where these rifles were actually used for combat (eg Vietnam, Bosnia, etc) the combatants were lucky to get ANY semi-automatic rifle at all. There probably aren't other guns lying around to swap for, so I doubt an occasional slam-fire would be cause for wholesale abandonment of these guns.
Also, in some cases, soldiers don't get the option of using any gun they like. Its carry your issue gun, or you go to the stockade.
quote:
The only thing that is going to set a round of is the firing pin struck by the hammer, no other way.
Unfortunately, this is not true. More so than potentially being drop-unsafe, SKS rifles are known for their tendency to slam-fire.
You can go to You-tube and see all sort of videos of SKS rifles with stuck or sticky firing pins firing just from charging the gun by dropping the bolt onto a live round. For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj3QtnUWCwQ andhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtxMPAXWV8
You're probably not "supposed" to to this, but here is another example of an SKS slam-firing just from releasing the bolt. Watch closely at about 14 seconds:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4zrB652Po4
And there are others, like this anecdote about an accidental death caused by an SKS slam firing and going full auto:
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/long-guns-discussion/1780-sks-slamfire.html
quote:There would be a lot of questions in my mind if someone ask a group solders to make sure that the chamber empty when starting a patrol and when the fire fight is over told to unload the chamber of the rifle.
See above.
As a point of fact, it was (and still is) SOP in the Israeli army to carry all guns with empty chambers unless in actual combat or anticipating it imminently. Being on point in patrol would probably count as the latter.
There were various historical reasons for this, including non standardization of issue guns during the Israeli war of Independence and relative inexperience of soldiers during same.
Since the fledgling Israelis were using so many different guns (mausers, stens, hunting rifles, homemade guns built in garages, whatever) with different safety systems, they found that they only way they could standardize training and procedure was for everyone to carry with empty chambers. This also had the beneficial side effect of reducing accidental discharges.
quote:Walking around on the range with a round in the chamber is not a good idea with any rifle. Not cleaning a rifle with a floating firing pin is not a good idea. Cracking walnuts with the butt end of the SKS is not a good idea.
Of course, no argument.
But to be Devil's advocate, I walk around on the gun range with holstered cocked and locked pistols all the time. I don't think this practice is unsafe.
I don't see a reason why having a slung rifle with a round in the chamber and the safety engaged should be any different. With most modern gun designs you can literally hammer nails with a cocked and locked gun, and it won't (can't) go off. With the SKS this is just not true.
Bottom line, I'm not saying SKS rifles are intrinsically unsafe. I'm saying that the guns have a few recognized flaws that can potentially lead to unintended discharges and you have to be extra-careful to follow all gun safety rules with these.0 -
M-1's and Carbines have a tang that keeps the fp from going forward (by a bridge in the receiver) until the bolt has rotated into battery.
The BAR fires from an open bolt and will slam fire with the hammer removed because of its' heavy fp and no anti-slam fire provision.
The SKS fp body is considerably thinned to reduce its'inertial force but it's marginal with soft primers because of the heavy slide spring.
The same can be said for the AK although some 7.62x39 Chinese commercial models came through having spring loaded fp's.
To my knowledge, all Chinese 56S, 5.56 AK's had spring loaded fp's.0 -
Firing pin fix for SKS!
http://www.murraysguns.com/sksown.htm0
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