P-14 ( .303 British) vs Model 1917 (30-06 US)
If looking at two comparable rifles: a P14 and a M1917 ... other than the designation on the firearms, what would determine one vs. the other in your mind, with your eyes?
What differences are there between these two military rifles, in function or form other than the cartridges they used?
I realize the differences regarding the chambering and bore. Other than that, what would or would not be interchangeable? Would the magazine, feeder ramps and such vary, and much?
Manufacture, finish and function comparable, right?
What differences are there between these two military rifles, in function or form other than the cartridges they used?
I realize the differences regarding the chambering and bore. Other than that, what would or would not be interchangeable? Would the magazine, feeder ramps and such vary, and much?
Manufacture, finish and function comparable, right?
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The magazine, bolt face, chamber and rifling dimensions were altered, and the volley sights deleted from the side of the rifle. 0 -
Both are Mausers. 0 -
The are not mausers though they have some similarities.
Butch0 -
quote:The are not mausers though they have some similarities
the original enfield p14 was in .276 and had a mouser style mag. in ww1 the brits couldn't supply enough and contracts were given to remington, eddystone(owned by remington) and someone else (winchester?). more p14 were made for ww1 than 1917's.
the original p14 was introduced to replace the smle, but the smle endured thru the next world war.
of course, i could be wrong.....[;)]
tom
btw, are you 'guesser' on another forum?0 -
I am Butch Lambert on all the forums that I frequent.
Butch0 -
With the exceptions that 11b6r noted, the two rifles are virtually identical. Externally, they are hard to tell apart. From what I've read, when the US loaned some Model 1917's to Britan during WWII, the rifles had to be marked with paint stripes to try to avoid ammo mix-ups. 0 -
The P14 has a larger boltface for the rimmed cartridges.I believe the magazine parts are different because of the rimmed cartridges.
Butch0 -
Alan,
I finally got two and two put together on these rifles myself.
First, the U.S. adopted the Mauser based 1903 first in 30-03 then in 30-06. Two years later the Brits decide the Mauser seems to be a better design than the SMLE so they start testing variations of the 1903 which became the P-13 (for pattern # 13). Which was in .280 Ross, not .276. Same diameter bullets though. Both .284/7mm. Just the Ross was a lot bigger case. Bigger, I understand, than the .280 Rem is now. But, it had the same case head as the .303 and a lot of taper. Anyhow, they couldn't get the problems worked out before WWI broke out. At this point all capable rifle production went towards what they had, the SMLE and the .303. But, they also figured out that the P-13 could be transformed to take the .303. They came to Remington and Winchester and asked if they could build these for them under contract. Remington figured they would need more production capability so they purchased the Eddystone firearms factory. They then began producing P-14 rifles in .303 British.
After a couple years the U.S. entered the war. Springfield could only build so many M1903's. It was decided to make the minimally required changes and switch from producing P-14's to what is now the U.S. Model of 1917 rifle in U.S. Cal .30 (30-06). Sometimes called the P-17 for short. Although that is unofficial in any way.
More model of 1917's were produced and issued than the M1903. Even though the M1903 is called the 'front-line' rifle.
M1903's were produced up to and into WWII. Model 1917's were only produced into the '20's and what was left was put into emergency wartime storage. Many were rebarreled and used during WWII. By D-day, Operation Overlord, most still seeing active duty in Europe were relegated to rear echelon troops.
Edit:
Alan,
The major difference I see in the markings is a P14 will say "Remington" or "Winchester" or be marked RA for Remington Arms or WA for Winchester Arms Or just W. But the 1917 will be marked U.S. Model of 1917 and the maker.0 -
sandwarrior: While your thumb-nail sketch hits the basics, my research indicates that the pattern 13 was, indeed, chambered for a cartridge called the .276 Enfield and not the .280 Ross. The .276 had a bullet diameter of .282 vs. the .287 of the Ross and was loaded with a 165 gr bullet with muzzle velocity of (supposedly) 2785 fps. The .280 Ross was strictly a sporting cartridge and was never chambered in a military rifle--even the Canadian Ross military rifle. You are correct that the Ross case is bigger than the .280 Remington; it is bigger even than the 7mm Rem. Mag.! It has a slight rim at .556 dia. which is about .030 larger than the rim of the .303 cartridge. (I have some .280 Ross cartridges in my collection. I'm even crazy enough that I have a .280 Ross rifle!)
I would recommend a book "Pattern 1914 and U.S. Model of 1917" by Charles R. Stratton. It's inexpensive and packed with information about these all but forgotten rifles.
Incidently, the Eddystone plant alone made almost as many rifles in the 17 months from Sept., 1917 to Jan., 1919 as Springfield made from 1903 to 1940!0 -
Sand, the .276 P-13 Enfield is not the same as .280 Ross from what I can find.
Side by side pictures in the thread at:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3617
I never heard of any connection between the 1903 Springfield and the Pattern 13 Enfield. The departures from the basic Mauser design are not the same anywhere I can tell.0
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