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Question on 03 FFL License

5mmgunguy
Can you ship a sporterized 1943 Mauser to a C&R FFL holder or can it only be stock?
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Comments

12 comments

Date Votes
  • cpermd
    Must be "original"

    CP
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  • vicg1
    once modified to a sporter it is no longer a curio or relic... so answer is no... it's listed under the C&R FAQ at the ATF website.
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  • mark christian
    C&R classification applies to All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.

    Once you modify such a rifle it is no longer a Curio or Relic, it is simply another firearm. In the case of "Sporterizing" it becomes just another hunting rifle and has no C&R status.
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  • 5mmgunguy
    Thanks guys!
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  • williwm
    This is from the FAQ BATF website:

    What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?

    The definition for curio or relic ("C & R") firearms found in 27 CFR ? 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

    It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable-for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.
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  • dfletcher
    What if it was modified before 1960 - hence, it has been in its current condition for greater than 50 years?

    I think C & R law is the last frontier of "hell, who knows for sure?" firearms law.
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  • Spider7115
    quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
    What if it was modified before 1960 - hence, it has been in its current condition for greater than 50 years?

    I think C & R law is the last frontier of "hell, who knows for sure?" firearms law.


    It needs to be in its original configuration. There's no way to tell when a gun was modified so it's irrelevant. Once it's been significantly modified, it's no longer C&R eligible.

    A US Model 1898 Krag rifle made in 1901 is C&R eligible. If it was sporterized in 1902, it's no longer C&R and needs to go through an FFL dealer.
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  • mark christian
    It has to be original, or as already pointed out: Parts replaced with items which duplicate the original configuration are allowed.

    27 CFR Section 478.11, defines C&R firearms as those "which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons."

    A sporterized 1903 Springfield rifle instantly becomes nothing more than a ordinary hunting rifle and loses it's C&R status, which is based on it's listing as a bolt action military rifle: All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.

    None of this is really tricky when you read the regulations.
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  • dfletcher
    ^^^

    I understand and have checked the ATF site:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#modifications

    The ATF C & R book asks "what is a C & R?" and answers by stating it must meet one of three conditions, one condition being that it was manufactured more than 50 years prior. If a gunsmith took a 98 or an 03 and rebuilt it as a sporting rifle (such as Sedgley or Jaeger or Pachmayer did)before 1960, has it not been "manufactured" greater than 50 years prior? I realize merely lopping off a forearm probably isn't going to qualify as manufacturing though.

    IIRC, ATF recently stated that the "original configuration" dictum applies to commercial firearms also, yes?

    I'm not trying to convince or be disagreeable, just seems there's an area to discuss, especially when ATF states the code as written didn't specifiy original condition, but that requirement was a later administrative decision.
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  • mark christian
    quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
    ^^^

    I understand and have checked the ATF site:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#modifications

    The ATF C & R book asks "what is a C & R?" and answers by stating it must meet one of three conditions, one condition being that it was manufactured more than 50 years prior. If a gunsmith took a 98 or an 03 and rebuilt it as a sporting rifle (such as Sedgley or Jaeger or Pachmayer did)before 1960, has it not been "manufactured" greater than 50 years prior? I realize merely lopping off a forearm probably isn't going to qualify as manufacturing though.

    IIRC, ATF recently stated that the "original configuration" dictum applies to commercial firearms also, yes?






    In the case you describe: The modified 98 Mauser has not been manufactured by the firms; they simply took an existing firearm and modified in order to change it from a military rifle into a hunting rifle, which means that it is no longer original and no longer a Curio and Relic. Commercial firearms must also be in their original configuration; which means that if you take a Winchester Model 70 rifle produced in 1955 cut it's barrel back to 16 inches and added a folding stock you no longer have a C&R rifle.
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  • Nwcid
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
    ^^^

    I understand and have checked the ATF site:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#modifications

    The ATF C & R book asks "what is a C & R?" and answers by stating it must meet one of three conditions, one condition being that it was manufactured more than 50 years prior. If a gunsmith took a 98 or an 03 and rebuilt it as a sporting rifle (such as Sedgley or Jaeger or Pachmayer did)before 1960, has it not been "manufactured" greater than 50 years prior? I realize merely lopping off a forearm probably isn't going to qualify as manufacturing though.

    IIRC, ATF recently stated that the "original configuration" dictum applies to commercial firearms also, yes?






    In the case you describe: The modified 98 Mauser has not been manufactured by the firms; they simply took an existing firearm and modified in order to change it from a military rifle into a hunting rifle, which means that it is no longer original and no longer a Curio and Relic. Commercial firearms must also be in their original configuration; which means that if you take a Winchester Model 70 rifle produced in 1955 cut it's barrel back to 16 inches and added a folding stock you no longer have a C&R rifle.


    Thanks, Mark. I was wondering the same thing on this thread.
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  • mark christian
    You could submit the heavily modified Win 70 to the BATFE for determination as to whether or not it would be classified as C&R due to the fact that it is rare, novel, unusual or bizarre, but this is done on a case by case basis and is one reason why you will often see a specific firearm with it's serial number as a stand alone listing in the C&R list. The concept of C&R firearms is based on the fact that they have a specific appeal to collectors and just like paintings that has been "retouched" or a coins that has been "cleaned up", collectors want them original.
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