B STAHL, SUHL Anybody know?
Just wondering if anyone knew anything about this gun? Beautiful engraving, Side by side shotgun/rifle, I just had the wood made for it. Im really lost past that. Any ideas on what its worth, or history on it would be much apreciated!
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I know nothing about this combo gun , but I really like it, great wood,and nice "butt pad" what caliber/gauge is it? how is it to fire? thanks for the photo, Bob 0 -
Do I see a CRACKED Right Hammer??? 0 -
B. Stahl is listed in my reference as Babette Stahl, the owner of a gunsmithing business in Suhl Germany. This was during the 1890's, as the business was sold in 1901. If their are proof marks on either the water table or underside of the barrels it might be possible to narrow down the DOM. 0 -
Thanks for the comments so far guys! The worst part is I never even saw the cracked hammer as I blew the picture up lol. I got some pictures of the proof marks, a couple of them I just cant even tell what they are. Thanks again! 0 -
Just putting the gun back together and nodiced 1 more
P.S. does anybody have any suggestions on fixing the hammer? or its just not worth it?
P.P.S You can't really get the full grasp of it looking at the pictures but if you look with a magnified glass at the deer and rabbit pictures, there is just such great detail it really is amazing how they could have done that 120 years ago!0 -
The Proof Marks are the standard German ones for rifled and smooth bored barrels. But don't appear to be the very early ones that were used in the 1890's. Perhaps it was made just prior to the First World War rather then the 90's?
The main market and value for this type of combination gun, that are known in German as a Buchsflinten. Would be back in the fatherland. Most were brought back to the States by G.I.'s as souvenirs after the war. Although the restocking and wood appear to be very high quality it would detract from it's value if it were to be sent back to Germany for sale. With the cracked hammer I don't see it being a shooter, rather a high class wall hanger/decorator.0 -
[:0] NICE 0 -
kensguns,
Well, since we missed it the first time, Welcome to the Gunbroker Forums!
Some meat and potatoes for the proof marks:
Crown over 'G' = Black powder proof for rifled barrels.
Crown over 'S' = Black powder proof for smoothbore barrels.
Crown over 'W' = Choke-bore proof mark.
Crown over 'U' = Proofed at final assembly (inspection mark)
16 '16 in a circle' is the shotgun barrel gauge as in 16 ga.
Those funny little feathered creatures which you can't quite make out are further proof marks which are redundant to the Crown proofs.
Now, this part can be tricky since the numbers can be derived or used from a list.
67/49 = the bore diameter of the rifled barrel which, according to the reference list is 0.410" as determined by the method detailed below. You would need to cast the chamber and measure the cast to determine the particular cartridge unless there is another stamp on the combination gun.
"Rifle Gauge Table
A brief table that is pretty helpful for pre-WWI German rifles shows the use of fractional 'gauge' numbers for barrel diameters. This was largest plug gauge diameter that would fit in the bore. The British proof law of 1868 had set up standard gauge sizes from .300" (172.28 gauge) to .450" (51.05 gauge) in .010" increments in the same sense that a shotgun bore is gauged, by the number of round lead balls of that diameter that make a pound. The Germans adopted this somewhat awkward system as well.
Gauge - inch
51.05 - .450
54.61 - .440
58.50 - .430
62.78 - .420
67.49 - .410
72.68 - .400
78.41 - .390
84.77 - .380
91.83 - .370
99.70 - .360
108.49 - .350 very common on 9,3mms
118.35 - .340 somewhat common on 9,3mms
129.43 - .330
141.95 - .320
156.14 - .310
172.28 - .300 very common on 8mms
These are most frequently seen with a / instead of the decimal point, as in 172/28 or 84/77"
Best.0 -
Hello Ken,
I'm not the first, but welcome to gunbrokers.com, I hope that you will find what you are looking for here.
You had mentioned in your post that you found another problem during your cleaning of the firearm. Was it another crack to the same hammer or to the second hammer, or what?
I'm not the one that can give you an experienced opinion or valuation of this firearm.
I would discourage you from altering the metal that you have on this piece. I believe that if you are considering repair ... you should perhaps rather contemplate keeping what you have but having replacement pieces created.
Not sure where you are located nor what craftsmen are there abouts, nor any idea of costs.
I would check around with State Associations of: Gunsmiths, Blacksmiths and Metal Jewelers. In my area I have been amazed with finding such a range of skilled metal crafts people through the Blacksmith organization. Often the present and former association leaders have been around longer and established many contacts in many esoteric specialties.
If I went that route, I'd have both right and left made whether needed now or not. (Maybe two of each ... if they are made at one time, it'd probably be a decent price. I believe that they would make a fine cast of them "lost wax" method. A lot of the detail would be there and that person, or another could clean-up and enhance it, if needed.
Sorry that it took me awhile to get back to you today. I had this all written early this AM, but my PC froze-up on me and I lost the "manuscript"! If this helps, or you need any additional info I can help with, just email me and I will get back to you asap.
PS: Is that a crack in the metal of the underside of the forearm? (If so, if could be cast or fabricated as well, at the same time.)
g'day, Alan0 -
Are the firing pins locked down in the fire position? It looks like if it were loaded and the action closed it would set off the shells. 0
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