mod a semi-auto rifle
Is it illegal to modify a semi-auto to an auto for your on private use?
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yep--you cannot make your own machineguns. 0 -
ok...it is a no..no..to modquote:Originally posted by ruger41
yep--you cannot make your own machineguns.0 -
Flint- a no-no is swiping your kids Halloween candy.
Making a machinegun without the Federal paperwork is 10 yrs, $250,000, losing your your girlish laughter and the right to ever own ANY firearm. And a new roomie- "Animal". That is a bit beyond a "no-no". [:p]0 -
ok .... a double major no..not..don't do it...quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
Flint- a no-no is swiping your kids Halloween candy.
Making a machinegun without the Federal paperwork is 10 yrs, $250,000, losing your your girlish laughter and the right to ever own ANY firearm. And a new roomie- "Animal". That is a bit beyond a "no-no". [:p]0 -
Not if you comply with all the Federal, State and Local laws. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by badsbsnf81
Not if you comply with all the Federal, State and Local laws.
Please tell me WHAT laws would make it legal since you CAN NOT comply with those laws AND build a machine gun.
Unless you have a time machine there is NO LEGAL way for a private person to make full auto gun these days.
EDIT:
Bean you make a valid point about becoming at SOT, but the OP stated "private" use and in this case it is just not possible. SOT is not private use.
quote:Originally posted by BigLoop22
Gents,
For those of us who do not easily understand acronyms, could you please explain "SOT"?
Thanks,
Special Occupation Tax. This is a annual fee paid by an 01 FFL to deal in NFA firearms and not have to pay a "per item" tax.0 -
quote:Originally posted by flint12
Is it illegal to modify a semi-auto to an auto for your on private use?
That depends.
What you describe is illegal everywhere in the USA under Federal law, and carries a pretty substantial criminal liability (ie its NOT just a little slap on the wrist).
Its also illegal under most American State laws as well (maybe all of them).
Its also illegal in just about every country with a functional justice system. (EG all of North America, South America, Western Europe, most/all of Eastern Europe, most/all of Asia, Australia, etc), which means its illegal to do this on most of the planet.
In fact, many of these countries won't allow you to legally own any semi-auto guns to begin with!
There probably are a few jurisdictions where you can do this legally (or there is no real "law" to stop you), though these are likely in third-world s@#$holes where you probably wouldn't want to live. In any place like that you're probably better off just buying a "real" machine gun from the start.
If you're rich enough to own your own private island, or can manage to live on somebody elses, you might be OK here.
Alternatively, there are also probably jurisdictions where its technically illegal to do it, but if you're well connected enough or rich enough, you can just grease the law to look the other way.
For example TED KENNEDY's PERSONAL BODYGUARD was busted with TWO illegal machine guns but was never charged.
http://books.google.com/books?id=dA3pGSYG2yIC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=ted+kennedy+bodyguard+machine+gun&source=bl&ots=JJxMtVuX6E&sig=NzM7vkqaU4TDnHjL8oEpYOWovQE&hl=en&ei=4RreS7XVMZHs9gS3zqSgBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=ted kennedy bodyguard machine gun&f=false
Lastly, I believe you "can" do this legally within the USA, IF you happen to be a federally licensed manufacturer of machine guns, AND you are building what is known as a post-86 "demo" sample machine gun, which is non-transferable. Needless to say, this isn't exactly a practical answer, since it involves much paperwork, background checks, expense, etc.
EDIT:
quote:NWCID:
Bean you make a valid point about becoming at SOT, but the OP stated "private" use and in this case it is just not possible. SOT is not private use.
Practical. . .no.
Possible. . .I think it is.
Yeah, technically if you're manufacturing a demo machine gun, its not really supposed to be for you to shoot for hoots and giggles in your own backyard, but assuming you actually were a licensed manufacturer (ie a class 2 "special occupational taxpayer" with the ability to manufacture), I don't think there is a legal reason why you wouldn't be allowed to create the gun, possess it, and shoot it yourself as much as you liked. (Er. . .while you were "perfecting" the design!).
That's sort of the whole point of the license; that you can make and test (ie shoot) full auto guns for "demonstration" and "research and development" purposes. Who is to say that your firing the gun at burned out cars in your backyard isn't critical "research" you need to perfect the design?
I'm not one, obviously, but I think the SOT fees are $1000 per year for both involved licenses. I also don't know exactly what's involved in getting the licenses, but I'd assume its the usual mess of fees, paperwork, fingerprinting, background checks, waiting, more waiting, etc. I'd imagine the BATFE must scrutinize the application pretty closely, and unless you could make and document a convincing case that you were ACTUALLY in the business of manufacturing guns, they'd deny your application.
I'm also pretty sure that if you ever lost or gave up the license, you'd have to destroy or give up any full auto demo guns you've built.
But assuming you were savvy about the application process, or were otherwise legitimately involved in the firearms manufacture business, I think this is a potentially legal way for you to build your own machine gun and possess it.
Worth it? Again, unless you are legitimately in the firearms business, I strongly doubt it. $1000 per year in fees and other hassles, isn't a particularly cheap "rental".
Personally, I think machine guns are fun, but highly overrated. The novelty of full-auto fire wears off fairly quickly, especially when you consider the cost of feeding the guns.
If you just want to shoot a LEGAL machine gun a few times, to get some sense of what its like, by **FAR** the cheapest/easiest way to go is just to find a range that rents them and rent one, even if that involves flying to another state!0 -
Gents,
For those of us who do not easily understand acronyms, could you please explain "SOT"?
EDIT:
Thanks, sandwarrior. I see the words in his post, but I did not make the connection.
Thanks,0 -
quote:Originally posted by BigLoop22
Gents,
For those of us who do not easily understand acronyms, could you please explain "SOT"?
Thanks,
"special occupational taxpayer" Beantownshootah's post said it.
In short it is ONLY legal if you go through all the hoops with the ATF. A lot of tall jumps to make it happen. As I understand the rules you as an individual can't. But you as the owner of a company, who has met all the criteria, i.e. have a reason to build, paid the 'taxes', can.0 -
what about those kits you mount on the trigger and turn a crank. The gun acts as an autoquote:Originally posted by sandwarrior
quote:Originally posted by BigLoop22
Gents,
For those of us who do not easily understand acronyms, could you please explain "SOT"?
Thanks,
"special occupational taxpayer" Beantownshootah's post said it.
In short it is ONLY legal if you go through all the hoops with the ATF. A lot of tall jumps to make it happen. As I understand the rules you as an individual can't. But you as the owner of a company, who has met all the criteria, i.e. have a reason to build, paid the 'taxes', can.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
quote:Originally posted by badsbsnf81
Not if you comply with all the Federal, State and Local laws.
Please tell me WHAT laws would make it legal since you CAN NOT comply with those laws AND build a machine gun.
Unless you have a time machine there is NO LEGAL way for a private person to make full auto gun these days.
He said "mod". Couldn't you purchase an auto sear manufactured prior to the ban and be good with the approprtiate NFA tax and paperwork?0 -
quote:Originally posted by flint12
what about those kits you mount on the trigger and turn a crank. The gun acts as an auto
There is still one trigger pull per shot with one of those, same as using a "bump fire" technique.
By defination, automatic fire is more than one round fired with a single pull of the trigger. It's the single pull/multi shot bit you need to pay attention to.0 -
what about those kits you mount on the trigger and turn a crank. The gun acts as an autoquote:Originally posted by ruger41
yep--you cannot make your own machineguns.0 -
i see. One way i can mod(add a crank) the gun and have an auto but a different way to mod the gun is illegal. But I would still have an auto with the crank mod. quote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
quote:Originally posted by flint12
what about those kits you mount on the trigger and turn a crank. The gun acts as an auto
There is still one trigger pull per shot with one of those, same as using a "bump fire" technique.
By defination, automatic fire is more than one round fired with a single pull of the trigger. It's the single pull/multi shot bit you need to pay attention to.0 -
quote:Originally posted by roadchoad
quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
quote:Originally posted by badsbsnf81
Not if you comply with all the Federal, State and Local laws.
Please tell me WHAT laws would make it legal since you CAN NOT comply with those laws AND build a machine gun.
Unless you have a time machine there is NO LEGAL way for a private person to make full auto gun these days.
He said "mod". Couldn't you purchase an auto sear manufactured prior to the ban and be good with the approprtiate NFA tax and paperwork?
When phrased that way I can follow what you are saying. The RDIAS (Registered Drop In Auto Sear) in a few styles of guns or the LL (Lighting Link) for AR's are a way to to legally get full auto out of current guns. RDIAS and LL are both serial numbered and registered part (to be legal) so are basically considered firearms.
The OP said "modify" which does mean many things to many people. To me adding a legal part to a legal gun to me is not modifying, but to some it could be so I see your point.0 -
quote:Originally posted by flint12
i see. One way i can mod(add a crank) the gun and have an auto but a different way to mod the gun is illegal. But I would still have an auto with the crank mod.
The ATF does not say cranks are machine guns for 2 reasons. The first has been told to you and that is the trigger is just being pulled fast. Fast pulling of the trigger is NOT full auto.
The other reason the crank is not a FA is because it takes you manually moving your hand to keep the gun shooting. Since you hand has to keep moving you are not getting "more then one shot per trigger pull".0 -
It seems The intent of the law is not to have a rapid fire gun.The hand crank is rapid fire. The hand crank just finds loopholes in the law. But then again, does the law state what speed is rapid fire.quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
quote:Originally posted by flint12
i see. One way i can mod(add a crank) the gun and have an auto but a different way to mod the gun is illegal. But I would still have an auto with the crank mod.
The ATF does not say cranks are machine guns for 2 reasons. The first has been told to you and that is the trigger is just being pulled fast. Fast pulling of the trigger is NOT full auto.
The other reason the crank is not a FA is because it takes you manually moving your hand to keep the gun shooting. Since you hand has to keep moving you are not getting "more then one shot per trigger pull".0 -
quote:Originally posted by flint12
It seems The intent of the law is not to have a rapid fire gun.The hand crank is rapid fire. The hand crank just finds loopholes in the law. But then again, does the law state what speed is rapid fire.
Guns are either machine guns or not.
What IS a machine gun is clearly defined as "firing more then one bullet per single pull of the trigger". So either your gun does that. If you had a side by side gun with a single trigger that fired both barrels at the same time that would be a machine gun by definition.
The crank is NOT a loophole, it simply does not fit the definition of a machine gun.
There is no law that states a rate of fire because of the definition above.
As to why it was written you would have to go back to 1934 and ask them. If you want to read up on it then go to the NFA FAQ above and read the link in there about the National Firearms Act of 1934.0 -
Flint: if you have a hand-cranked weapon,
the speed is limited by the user's dexterity. Not litigation.
Hand cranking/bump-firing technique has a semi-auto fire
control mechanism installed..and you are doing the firing
of repeated shots by manual input. Big difference
from an (ATF defined) machinegun.
Speed? once it's (an ATF defined) machinegun,
the rate of fire is up to the gun's design limitations.
ATF is only interested in whether or not the gun can
fire automatically. If you have the cash, and get all the
paperwork done, you can get a minigun. High rate of fire.
If you take the same basic minigun design, and allow the
barrels to be rotated through manual operation (crank fired
Gatling guns), then it is not a machinegun, and can be
purchased like any rifle.
Too many one-lined questions. Are you a reporter?
EDIT: Text compression0 -
Flint
You can buy/build a working Gattling gun, and burn all the powder you want, as fast as you want, legally with it.
BUT, if you replace the hand crank with a power drove (even if the rate of fire is lower), than you're in violation of the law.
IOW it has nothing to do with the rate of fire, it has to do with how many rounds are fired with a single activation of the weapon.0 -
i seequote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
Flint
You can buy/build a working Gattling gun, and burn all the powder you want, as fast as you want, legally with it.
BUT, if you replace the hand crank with a power drove (even if the rate of fire is lower), than you're in violation of the law.
IOW it has nothing to do with the rate of fire, it has to do with how many rounds are fired with a single activation of the weapon.0 -
quote:Originally posted by flint12
i see
Here is the actual ATF definition;
2.1.6 Machinegun. Firearms within the definition of machinegun include weapons that shoot,
are designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot
without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger.
So either a gun does that or it does not.0 -
One more time:
quote:Is it illegal to modify a semi-auto to an auto for your on private use?
Answer, yes, that's illegal, unless you happen to be a licensed legal manufacturer of machine guns (which you're not, and probably won't ever be).
A drop-in auto sear could be a way to turn CERTAIN guns into full auto guns (Eg AR-15s), but per the BATFE, the sear itself is legally considered a machine gun all by itself. The sears themselves cost as much (or nearly as much) as a full-transferable full-auto gun.
In other words, legally obtaining the sear is effectively equivalent to just buying the legal transferable full auto gun to begin with. (In case you're curious, transferable full auto AR-15 type guns and auto sears currently run about $12,000 each).
A gatling-type trigger crank doesn't turn the gun into a full auto; its just a gimmick that lets you pull the trigger faster. There are other burst-fire type devices that basically do the same thing. I think these are silly, myself (particularly the crank), but they're a lot better than a ten year vacation in Club Fed.
If you just want to achieve the RATE of fire of full auto (but without converting the gun illegally) you can learn to bump-fire.
This is a trick where you manipulate the gun in such a way that the recoil bounce makes you pull the trigger again (and again. . .and again. . .ad infinitum). There's a zillion vidoes of what this looks like on the web, if you search for "bump fire".
quote:It seems The intent of the law is not to have a rapid fire gun.The hand crank is rapid fire. The hand crank just finds loopholes in the law. But then again, does the law state what speed is rapid fire.
Rate of fire is irrelevant.
In fact, Bob Munden (trick shooter) can "fan" a modified single action cowboy revolver to achieve a rate of fire as fast as an Uzi, and Jerry Miculek can get nearly full-auto rates of fire with a double action revolver!
With a good bit of practice, its possible for nearly anyone to empty out a 10 shot .22 semi-auto pistol in roughly 2 seconds flat, for a full-auto like cyclic rate of fire of 300 rounds per minute.
Pull the trigger on a 12 gauge shotgun ONCE, and you're potentially spitting 9-12 .35 caliber lead balls downrange at once!
So far as I know, there are no laws banning particular rates of fire. The laws prohibit guns that fire MORE THAN ONE CARTRIDGE PER TRIGGER PULL.
If you can figure out a way to pull your trigger 10-20 times per second, you've got full auto rate of fire, without an actual full auto gun.0 -
BTW, the SOT goes to the IRS, and it's no big deal, after you have the FFL.
Next; when you give up the SOT, any guns in inventory revert to you, if you are a sole propriator.
P.S.; That's how I got mine.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bill Jordan
BTW, the SOT goes to the IRS, and it's no big deal, after you have the FFL.
Next; when you give up the SOT, any guns in inventory revert to you, if you are a sole propriator.
P.S.; That's how I got mine.
Dont you mean you can keep any guns EXCEPT post sample machine guns?
Last I saw post sample machine guns could only be owned buy current SOT or "qualified" owners (LEO/GOV).0
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