Taurus Judge vs: Judge Public Defender(compact)
Has anyone on this forum compared the two revolvers? I am looking to buy one, thought I had myself convinced to buy the compact for size and that cutoff hammer. Then I was at a sporting goods store last night, and handled both. There is little comfort in holding the compact due to the short grip. How does it feel when shot? Does it stay aligned and under control? Secondly, the hammer, while cutoff and less snagable, was not ergonomic.. very hard to pull due to the angle of contact I believe. And possibly due to a smaller area of contact on the thumb..?? I typically shoot my double actions like single actions.. so this is somewhat important. Does the hammer loosen up? Do you get used to it? And again, how is the feel during shooting as compared to the full size? Thanks, Caseyjavascript:insertsmilie('[?]')
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Hello, and welcome to the forums here on Gunbroker.
If I were in your shoes, I would use the search function, and look up some previous threads on here that are about the Judge. I know a 45/410 sounds awesome, but after you get that new Taurus, you are going to want to puke when it does not function. A good many on here have had bad experiences with the Taurus name brand, and especially the JUDGE model's. Their experience is even turned worse, when they have to deal with the Customer Service Department at Taurus. I would refrain.
Best
EDIT1
quote:dogspit
Starting Member
17 Posts
Posted - 04/24/2010 : 1:15:16 PM
HUMMMMM?
I've owned both and never had a problem.
I currently have the public defender and like it alot.
As far as quality; in any mechanical device there sometimes are some hickupps!i.e. Ruger and the LCP Colt and the 45 Defender, etc.
Life is to long so do what you like and if that isn't sufficent do something else!
Like I said...do a search on the Judge in this forum, and you will find more than enough evidance of not to buy one. I do have one Taurus...the 22 pump model 62 clone...a stainless carbine...it has been a great little rifle. I have tried several revolver's and got rid of them.
Best0 -
HUMMMMM?
I've owned both and never had a problem.
I currently have the public defender and like it alot.
As far as quality; in any mechanical device there sometimes are some hickupps!i.e. Ruger and the LCP Colt and the 45 Defender, etc.
Life is to long so do what you like and if that isn't sufficent do something else![;)]
It's only money!0 -
The Taurus Judge seems cool, but the advantage of having a revolver that can shoot .410 and .45 Colt is almost negligible in my opinion.
.410: not the best for home defense. Limited number of shot regardless of size.
.45 Colt: good round, but from what I've read accuracy is not the best out of these things.
If you're buying it to have fun or the cool factor (not denigrating the cool factor - cool is cool and that's cool[8D]), I'd suggest the compact since it looks better and probably functions the same.
If you're thinking about getting it for home or personal defense, get something else.0 -
I have the public defender. I am pleased with the function and ballistics. Have put over 200 45 colts and 200 .410 shot shells without any problem.
The new federal .410 000 buckshot hold a decent pattern and as for the 45 more than accurate for me[;)]
As for barrel length the short pd barrel helps keep the shot tighter, less spinning.[:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by dogspit
HUMMMMM?
I've owned both and never had a problem.
I currently have the public defender and like it alot.
As far as quality; in any mechanical device there sometimes are some hickupps!i.e. Ruger and the LCP Colt and the 45 Defender, etc.
Life is to long so do what you like and if that isn't sufficent do something else![;)]
It's only money!
I have nothing to say but good things about mine.
Fit finish and a cylinder the locks up tight.
P.s. I would not want to stand in front of it[:D]0 -
I see absolutely NO point in getting a small or compact "judge" gun.
The "judge" is a novelty gun, period.
Shot patterning out of this gun is terrible. Past 5-6 yards the pattern spreads so wide you can't really use it for hunting.
You'd think the "Judge" should be good with 410 buckshot. . .its not.
From a REAL shotgun, you can get 1250fps with .410 buckshot loads. That's something (though pretty much NOBODY advocates .410 buckshot for defense).
But from the short barrel of a "Judge" revolver you lose a tremendous amount of velocity, only getting about 900 fps with ordinary shotshells. (see here: http://mcb-homis.com/judge/ ). Combine that with the low pellet weight (only 70 grains for OOO buck pellets), and you've got a round with fairly anemic penetration.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_2.htm
Couple poor penetration with poor patterning, and its really not clear to me why you would want to trust your life to these rounds.
In contrast, .45LC actually is a serious defense round, and IMO its the ONLY round worth considering for defense if you had one of these guns. The problem is, if you like the .45 LC, you can find a lighter, more balanced, and more accurate revolver to shoot it out of. You can also get roughly similar ballistics with .44 special, or .45 ACP, expanding your gun choices much further.
In short, in my opinion, this gun isn't ideal for self-defense, let alone for concealed carry. If you just "have" to have one of these guns for novelty value, you might as well get the larger one as it will be more comfortable to shoot and offer better ballistics.
Edit(responding to below)quote:
And it makes me wonder also why the "Judge" has taken off so popularly.. Uninformed buyers??
I think its entirely because of marketing to individuals who aren't necessarily savvy about ballistics.
Before Taurus came up with the "Judge" name and marketing story about the S. Florida judges, the .410/45LC gun was just another numbered gun in Taurus' lineup. At that time sales were poor, and nobody was recommending that gun for really much of anything.
The Thunder Five, which was a (IIRC) polymer-framed revolver precursor to the "Judge" that came out years ago was a commercial flop, though the gun itself was undoubtedly inferior to the Judge and supposedly distribution was poor.
I have to say, on PAPER the idea of a shotgun pistol *is* sort of attractive. I mean 4 000 buckshot pellets from a round looks like 1/2 of a 12 gauge 000 buckshot load, and "everyone" "knows" that 00 (or 000) buckshot is a great stopper. If you didn't know any better, you'd think this gun was simply brilliant.
The problem is that the actual performance of the buckshot from the Judge pistol is just nowhere near the performance of the same type of load from a "real" shotgun, and most prospective buyers simply aren't sophisticated enough to realize this. Needless to say, Taurus isn't advertising it this way!
Getting back to the actual ballistics numbers, Federal claims 1325fps for its ordinary 12 gauge 8 shot 000 buckshot load. With special made Federal .410 loads, the Judge gives you only 4 000 pellets at a significantly slower 900 fps. Do the math, and shot-for-shot the Judge buckshot loads only yield 1/3 the potential momentum/power factor as the typical 12 gauge shotgun loads that people have in mind when they think about buckshot.
Even that doesn't tell the whole story. Because kinetic energy is equal to the SQUARE of velocity, at 900 vs 1325fps, you're only getting 46% of the kinetic energy per pellet from the pistol compared to the long gun.
Factor in the loss of kinetic energy, and shot for shot, the Judge only packs roughly 1/4 the whallop of an ordinary 12 gauge 000 shell. It probably compares even less favorably to more conventional 9 or 12 pellet 00 buckshot shells. The light .410 loads are nice if you want to comfortably shoot buckshot shells from a small gun with one hand, but not so good if the target on the other end is trying to kill you!
As another way to look at this, lets compare the Judge with buckshot to other more conventional pistol rounds to get some sense of scale.
At 1325fps with a 70 grain .36 caliber load, EACH "true" 000 buckshot pellet from a shotgun is roughly comparable to a lightweight .380ACP +P round. For example, the Glaser Safety slugs in .380ACP propel a 70 grain .36 caliber bullet at 1250 fps. That's reasonably close.
While nobody thinks a .380ACP is particularly hot, if you multiply it by 8 hits simultaneously with a full buckshot payload, now you are talking about potentially serious damage.
In comparison, again, each 70 grain 000 buck .36 caliber Judge pellet only gets 900 fps. Compare to the obsolete .38 long colt round, which fires a 150 grain .36 caliber bullet at 800 fps. This anemic precursor to the .38 special is only slightly more powerful than weak target .38 special "wadcutter" rounds. While the .38 long colt was once the standard US service round, it was discontinued (in favor of the .45ACP, itself designed to emulate .45LC ballistics!) for substandard performance in the field.
In other words, each Judge pellet delivers roughly HALF the energy and momentum of a round widely recognized as marginal for defensive use! Another reasonable comparison, would be say to a typical .38 special +P round which launches a 158 grain .36 caliber round at roughly 850fps from a 2" barrel snubnose revolver. Again, the Judge is putting out half or less than half of this energy and momentum per pellet!
Since penetration is largely a function of bullet weight, with the Judge and its lightweight 70 grain pellets, you're talking about a whole here that is LESS than the sum of the parts.
Would you rather be attacked by one 200 lb man or 4-50 lb 6-year olds?
I could go on, but I think I've made the point, namely that the on-paper "advantage" of the Judge in being able to launch buckshot loads just doesn't pan out when you look critically at the real world performance of those loads from that gun.
Again, as a novelty for fun on the range, this gun makes sense. It *might* make sense as a snake-gun in the backwoods (though I'd argue you'd do just as well, if not better with an ordinary .44 magnum or .45LC-type revolver with shotshells). Yes, in a pinch, I'd still rather have a "Judge" than say a .22 revolver or a number of similar small-caliber guns. But the bottom line is that in my opinion any number of more conventional guns in more conventional calibers are better choices for ordinary self-defense.0 -
First, Thank You all for responding to the forum. I am new to it and was unaware of the search function, or would have gone there first.. I now have and see what some of you are talking about.. And it makes me wonder also why the "Judge" has taken off so popularly.. Uninformed buyers??
Some of the responses have given me other options for substitutes. Including shotshells for a .357 or .44 that I already own.
Thanks again for your time. Casey0 -
As usual, different strokes for different folks. I own 2 Judges , an Ultralite and a Stainless full size.
I live in the country on some acreage and we have wildlife from gators to snakes to wild boar. I am probably not going to worry about them until they get into the 25 foot range. I get a good sense of security having a couple of rounds of 410 and some 45's tucked in the chamber.
I have lots of other firearms including big bore handguns and numerous rifles and shotguns but if I am wandering around my property on footv I find the Judge a pretty comforting compromise. Size,weight, caliber and close range capability. quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
I see absolutely NO point in getting a small or compact "judge" gun.
The "judge" is a novelty gun, period.
Shot patterning out of this gun is terrible. Past 5-6 yards the pattern spreads so wide you can't really use it for hunting.
You'd think the "Judge" should be good with 410 buckshot. . .its not.
From a REAL shotgun, you can get 1250fps with .410 buckshot loads. That's something (though pretty much NOBODY advocates .410 buckshot for defense).
But from the short barrel of a "Judge" revolver you lose a tremendous amount of velocity, only getting about 900 fps with ordinary shotshells. (see here: http://mcb-homis.com/judge/ ). Combine that with the low pellet weight (only 70 grains for OOO buck pellets), and you've got a round with fairly anemic penetration.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_2.htm
Couple poor penetration with poor patterning, and its really not clear to me why you would want to trust your life to these rounds.
In contrast, .45LC actually is a serious defense round, and IMO its the ONLY round worth considering for defense if you had one of these guns. The problem is, if you like the .45 LC, you can find a lighter, more balanced, and more accurate revolver to shoot it out of. You can also get roughly similar ballistics with .44 special, or .45 ACP, expanding your gun choices much further.
In short, in my opinion, this gun isn't ideal for self-defense, let alone for concealed carry. If you just "have" to have one of these guns for novelty value, you might as well get the larger one as it will be more comfortable to shoot and offer better ballistics.
Edit(responding to below)quote:
And it makes me wonder also why the "Judge" has taken off so popularly.. Uninformed buyers??
I think its entirely because of marketing to individuals who aren't necessarily savvy about ballistics.
Before Taurus came up with the "Judge" name and marketing story about the S. Florida judges, the .410/45LC gun was just another numbered gun in Taurus' lineup. At that time sales were poor, and nobody was recommending that gun for really much of anything.
The Thunder Five, which was a (IIRC) polymer-framed revolver precursor to the "Judge" that came out years ago was a commercial flop, though the gun itself was undoubtedly inferior to the Judge and supposedly distribution was poor.
I have to say, on PAPER the idea of a shotgun pistol *is* sort of attractive. I mean 4 000 buckshot pellets from a round looks like 1/2 of a 12 gauge 000 buckshot load, and "everyone" "knows" that 00 (or 000) buckshot is a great stopper. If you didn't know any better, you'd think this gun was simply brilliant.
The problem is that the actual performance of the buckshot from the Judge pistol is just nowhere near the performance of the same type of load from a "real" shotgun, and most prospective buyers simply aren't sophisticated enough to realize this. Needless to say, Taurus isn't advertising it this way!
Getting back to the actual ballistics numbers, Federal claims 1325fps for its ordinary 12 gauge 8 shot 000 buckshot load. With special made Federal .410 loads, the Judge gives you only 4 000 pellets at a significantly slower 900 fps. Do the math, and shot-for-shot the Judge buckshot loads only yield 1/3 the potential momentum/power factor as the typical 12 gauge shotgun loads that people have in mind when they think about buckshot.
Even that doesn't tell the whole story. Because kinetic energy is equal to the SQUARE of velocity, at 900 vs 1325fps, you're only getting 46% of the kinetic energy per pellet from the pistol compared to the long gun.
Factor in the loss of kinetic energy, and shot for shot, the Judge only packs roughly 1/4 the whallop of an ordinary 12 gauge 000 shell. It probably compares even less favorably to more conventional 9 or 12 pellet 00 buckshot shells. The light .410 loads are nice if you want to comfortably shoot buckshot shells from a small gun with one hand, but not so good if the target on the other end is trying to kill you!
As another way to look at this, lets compare the Judge with buckshot to other more conventional pistol rounds to get some sense of scale.
At 1325fps with a 70 grain .36 caliber load, EACH "true" 000 buckshot pellet from a shotgun is roughly comparable to a lightweight .380ACP +P round. For example, the Glaser Safety slugs in .380ACP propel a 70 grain .36 caliber bullet at 1250 fps. That's reasonably close.
While nobody thinks a .380ACP is particularly hot, if you multiply it by 8 hits simultaneously with a full buckshot payload, now you are talking about potentially serious damage.
In comparison, again, each 70 grain 000 buck .36 caliber Judge pellet only gets 900 fps. Compare to the obsolete .38 long colt round, which fires a 150 grain .36 caliber bullet at 800 fps. This anemic precursor to the .38 special is only slightly more powerful than weak target .38 special "wadcutter" rounds. While the .38 long colt was once the standard US service round, it was discontinued (in favor of the .45ACP, itself designed to emulate .45LC ballistics!) for substandard performance in the field.
In other words, each Judge pellet delivers roughly HALF the energy and momentum of a round widely recognized as marginal for defensive use! Another reasonable comparison, would be say to a typical .38 special +P round which launches a 158 grain .36 caliber round at roughly 850fps from a 2" barrel snubnose revolver. Again, the Judge is putting out half or less than half of this energy and momentum per pellet!
Since penetration is largely a function of bullet weight, with the Judge and its lightweight 70 grain pellets, you're talking about a whole here that is LESS than the sum of the parts.
Would you rather be attacked by one 200 lb man or 4-50 lb 6-year olds?
I could go on, but I think I've made the point, namely that the on-paper "advantage" of the Judge in being able to launch buckshot loads just doesn't pan out when you look critically at the real world performance of those loads from that gun.
Again, as a novelty for fun on the range, this gun makes sense. It *might* make sense as a snake-gun in the backwoods (though I'd argue you'd do just as well, if not better with an ordinary .44 magnum or .45LC-type revolver with shotshells). Yes, in a pinch, I'd still rather have a "Judge" than say a .22 revolver or a number of similar small-caliber guns. But the bottom line is that in my opinion any number of more conventional guns in more conventional calibers are better choices for ordinary self-defense.0
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