What ammo was banned
that they called cop killer I was thinking Corebon
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Go to the BATF web site they have them listed. Chinese steel core 7.62 X 39, Czech steel core 9mm, etc. etc. Never heard or seen of any Corbon being listed though? 0 -
The round people named "cop killer" was the Winchester Black Talon. Fun thing is that any centerfire rifle round will go though a standard vest as will quite a bit of pistol ammo when fired from a rifle length (16" +) barrel. Since the Black Talon was a very effective HP bullet my guess, based on how bullets work, is that it would most likely be stopped by the vest.
Winchester pulled the Black Talon line when they came up with their new and more effective STX and called it the Ranger.
As for what the ATF lists it is AP bullets as listed and ANY AP bullet that can be fired by a handgun.
Here is a link about "cop killer" bullets, http://old.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200403010926.asp0 -
Cor-bon ammo is both legal and in current manufacture, though quite pricey (as is all the "super-premium" ammo). Good stuff, if you can afford it.
The BATFE enforces a ban on the IMPORTATION into the USA of various forms of ammo it deems as "non-sporting", in particular ammo that it deems could be used from handguns to pierce armor.
There may also be specific city or State bans on specific types of ammo in various smaller jurisdictions.
Here is one relevant quote from section 18 of the Federal code:
quote:
1994--Subsec. (a)(17)(B). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 110519, amended
subpar. (B) generally. Prior to amendment, subpar. (B) read as follows:
``The term `armor piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.''
Note that so far as I know, *NO* on duty American police officer has ever been killed by so-called "cop killer" armor-piercing bullets, and unfortunately, plenty of them get killed with ordinary non armor-piercing bullets.
In terms of handgun threat, the low-level ballistic vests typically used by police can be defeated with ordinary ammo from any of the common large bore magnum handguns like .44 magnum, .454 Casull, and others.
In practice, most of the banned ammo is military surplus ammo that was actually NOT specifically designed to pierce ammo. (That sort of ammo does exist, but its specialized, scarce, highly expensive, and generally never released for civilian sales). Instead, low grade steel is used as a lead substitute in certain jacketed bullets for cost/manufacturing reasons.
The Chinese steel core 7.62x39 ammo got banned because it can be used in AK-type pistols. On the other hand, there is still plenty of steel core military surplus ammo available for WWII era surplus rifle calibers like 8mm Mauser and 7.62x54R Russian. Of course, any medium powered rifle round like those could go right through low grade ballistics armor with ANY bullet.
Also note that contrary to popular belief, Winchester Black Talon ammo has no special armor piercing properties, and its never been banned. Winchester voluntarily discontinued its manufacture for PR reasons after some (largely false) controversy arose surrounding it. Winchester continues to manufacture what many regard to be the same exact thing, in its Ranger SXT line of ammo.0 -
Sorry guys, but the original "Cop Killer" was the KTW ammo, LONG before Black Talon was ever marketed. IIRC, it was made FOR law enforcement sales only, and no LEO was ever shot with one. Go to 18 US Code 922, and read the restrictions on armor piercing ammo. Deals with manufacture and import. 0 -
fshfndr,
I can think of two rounds specifically. 5.7x28 in an FN handgun, because it originally was AP. Once non-AP rounds were made the ban on 5.7's was lifted. It didn't last too long.
The other was the Black Talon. That stuff is extremely lethal! It had a teflon like finish on it that allowed it to go through a kevlar vest like nothing. It's main reason for being called cop-killer and being hated, was that the bullet had weak points engraved on the front. The front of the bullet was hard and towards the rear of the ogive, very tough. So, what happened with this bullet was it opened up like a sunflower. It tended to cut it's way through a victim pretty deeply. Surgeons, who worked in trauma centers across the U.S., stated it was absolutely the worst kind of ammunition they've ever seen do damage to a person.
All that might be fluffy rhetoric if I hadn't actually seen a demonstration of what the stuff could do. A friend of mine in A&P school decided to take some out and see if it was true. He fired several into various media. But, the one I remember most was he shot a roast (thawed) wrapped in a kevlar vest (the kind that didn't stop much anyway). All of the bullets he brought in to show us were expanded out like throwing stars. A couple had one piece torn off. It went right through the vest and only the inner few layers were ripped up.
I heard it was banned. Then I heard it was pulled. The point is that is the nastiest bullet I've ever seen.0 -
What Beantown said is the way I remember it.
I see some disagreement on the "reasons" that Black Talon was pulled. I remember the reason being that as the bullet expanded, points on the star were sharp, and ER doctors (remember this is at the height of the AIDS panic) were worried about cutting themselves on the points. But really, as with any issue like this, the "reasons" are all Bulls**t, made up by people ignorant of firearms in the first place.
When Winchester came out with the SXT (note lack of threatening name) right after withdrawing the BT's, it was exactly the same ballistic performance as the Talon, just rounded points. The BT performed no better or worse than any +p hollow point.
It was not considered armor piercing. Just the opposite really. You might be thinking about the Black Rhino, that was due to come out just following the BT scare, that claimed to be armor piercing.
My recollection is that BT's were voluntarily withdrawn, and that they were not federally banned. They were legal to buy/sell/possess.
Just as an FYI at the time the HK MK 23 pistol came out, the Army was using BT's in them. This was after they were no longer for sale to the public, so Winchester was still making them.0 -
So much mis/dis/bad information on this thread, I hardly know where to begin.
(sigh)0 -
DRP-AZ,
This section of the forums is titled "Ask the Experts".
Comments such as yours serve no purpose. If you have something to add or clarify please do so but to simply comment in a demeaning manner has no place here.
Simply telling us how bad the information is useless and will usually result in deletion because we only allow a limited number of posts and try to maximize the information in each post.
Please add your information so we can continue the discussion.
Best.0 -
Armor Piercing AP rounds were banned years ago when concerns were raised after the JFK assassination that persons of interest could be hurt or worse in closed vehicles...
http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-Do-Armor-Piercing-Bullets-Work-56249.shtml
I can remember getting cases of black tipped ap 30-06 rounds from CMP as part of their plan along with standard and tracer 30-06 and .45 prior to ban.
The AP looked the same except for the color code. The projectile was made from tungsten/carbide steel alloy which could penetrate plate steel 1/2" thick in certain cases.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sandwarrior
fshfndr,
I can think of two rounds specifically. 5.7x28 in an FN handgun, because it originally was AP. Once non-AP rounds were made the ban on 5.7's was lifted. It didn't last too long.
The other was the Black Talon. That stuff is extremely lethal! It had a teflon like finish on it that allowed it to go through a kevlar vest like nothing. It's main reason for being called cop-killer and being hated, was that the bullet had weak points engraved on the front. The front of the bullet was hard and towards the rear of the ogive, very tough. So, what happened with this bullet was it opened up like a sunflower. It tended to cut it's way through a victim pretty deeply. Surgeons, who worked in trauma centers across the U.S., stated it was absolutely the worst kind of ammunition they've ever seen do damage to a person.
All that might be fluffy rhetoric if I hadn't actually seen a demonstration of what the stuff could do. A friend of mine in A&P school decided to take some out and see if it was true. He fired several into various media. But, the one I remember most was he shot a roast (thawed) wrapped in a kevlar vest (the kind that didn't stop much anyway). All of the bullets he brought in to show us were expanded out like throwing stars. A couple had one piece torn off. It went right through the vest and only the inner few layers were ripped up.
I heard it was banned. Then I heard it was pulled. The point is that is the nastiest bullet I've ever seen.
There is a tremendous mythology surrounding these bullets, and not suprisingly, most of it is false. Good summary on the stuff here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon
In short, Black talon ammo was never specifically banned ANYWHERE. You can still buy it, own it, carry it (except in NJ where all hollowpoints are restricted!) and shoot it all you like. . .if you're willing to pay the outrageously high price for the ammo, since its become a collectors item.
Contrary to popular belief, and in constrast to certain types of actual armor piercing ammo, Black talon ammo is NOT coated in teflon. Instead the bullets were coated with lubalox, which is a proprietary lubricant designed by Winchester. The confusion is that the lubalox is black, which is traditionally the same color as the teflon on TRUE armor piercing bullets. So because the black Talons LOOK a little like armor piercing bullets, they were unfairly labelled as armor piercing, even though they don't penetrate armor better than any other premium hollowpoint ammo.
Note that the teflon coating on ACTUAL armor piercing bullets is NOT there to help penetrate armor; that's another urban myth. Teflon is actually quite soft and doesn't readily penetrate through anything. EG, anyone who owns expensive teflon coated pots knows how readily they are scratched and ruined just by using ordinary metal cookware on them. The teflon coating on armor piercing bullets is there to protect the BARREL of the gun. Without a soft coating, the super-hard tungsten carbide (or steel/beryllium, etc) bullets used to penetrate armor would wear out the rifling of an ordinary gun quickly, ruining the barrel.
I can think of many reasons why Black Talon ammo would go through an ordinary vest, and not the least of which is that specs on low level vests are actually fairly anemic. For example, common level IIA vests won't stop moderate .357 rounds, even when brand new. Further, the fibers in kevlar vests normally deteriorate with age, and "retired" vests (which is what most people use for this sort of informal target testing) will normally lose much of their protective ability.
The biggest real world concern about Black Talon ammo was that the pointed edges of the "talons" you reference could cut the surgical gloves of surgeons or other medical personal working on gunshot victims. There was actually a scholarly article about this written in a medical journal in the 90s (I actually read it years ago; I think it was in either Am J Surgery or Am J forensic path. . .can't remember which now). Remember, this was during the heyday of the AIDS era, and it created a sort of outrage amongst general surgeons. . .many of whom are actually suprisingly ignorant about firearms and ballistics. Point in fact, I've never heard anybody complaining about this problem with SXT ammo, which is substantially similar to the older talons, though with a slightly altered bullet design. The fact is, ANY shrapnel can have razor sharp edges that can nick/cut surgical gloves including the jackets from ordinary ball or hollowpoint ammo, and this is well-appreciated by experienced trauma surgeons.0 -
There was another type of bullet that was much more likely to defeat a vest. It was marketed by PMC and was a hollow core solid metal design. It's actual original intent was deflating tires as it cuts a plug of material as it penetrates. It would most certainly do the same for soft armor. 0 -
Here is a several year old, but excellent summary on the deliberately misnamed "cop killer" bullets by an actual police officer:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html
This article essentially confirms most of what I wrote above, plus adds some good detail.
This author states that level IIa armor is supposed to stop "most" .357 magnum ammo. He's undoubtedly right about that, though there is quite a variety of .357 rounds available, and my understanding is that the hotter and/or fully jacketed 357 rounds can beat the common lesser vests. My guess is that along those lines certain types of 357 SIG and 10mm auto would also beat common vests, along with 9x23 Winchester, or other semi-obscure handgun rounds including dirt-cheap surplus Tokarev pistol ammo.
Note also that there is level 3 armor that will stop pretty much any ordinary handgun round all the way up to .308 Winchester rifle ammo. Of course this armor is expensive, heavy, bulky, and generally uncomfortable, so its not applicable for daily use by police.
And of course ANY armor can be defeated by hitting its wearer in a part of their body that isn't armored!0 -
The original banned ammo was the KTW teflon coated bronze bullet.
There have been several banned since then.
CP0 -
Beantown,
I would appreciate it if, when you quote me, you not take out of context what I said.
Obviously, my friend could own it. Because he bought it to see what it would do. He didn't make it. He didn't have some given to him by some LE guy.
Hearing that it was banned and hearing that it was pulled is much different than flatly stating that it was banned or pulled. I know I haven't seen it on a shelf in years. Then again, I don't look for it much other than to see if it's there once in a while. I load my own and have a different preference.
The kevlar vest in question that my friend used was in fact military surplus. The same kind of vest I wore when going into Grenada in 1983, ten years prior. Heavy, and except for the ability to stop .45 Ball ammo at somewhat close range, next to useless. But it's still a kevlar vest, and law enforcement was beginning to wear them. Plates hadn't become mainstream as of yet. The levels of protection you talk about were hardly the standard at the time this bullet came out.
I don't care if it was teflon or lubalox. If it assists going through a kevlar vest, then it assists going through a vest. Pointing the public to a different reason for it being there is very wise on the part of the manufacturer. Accusations like this get turned around on them. Better to have a solid different reason for it being there.
If you think it's a myth that this is a nasty bullet, then why do you quote what trauma surgeons write in their medical journals? Such as the AMA? NEJM? Maybe you could be kind enough to find that article and lead us to it. I personally saw the bullets that my friend fired. I saw how they opened up. I felt the tips and edges of these bullets. They were not razor sharp as you say, but sharp enough to do damage while still rotating and dispensing energy into a body. The tips were sharp enough to poke a finger if you tapped one pretty hard. I'm also sure if you search around you will see what they also had to say about the wound channel. A .44 or .45 cal. bullet that opens up to 1.25" with 'sharp enough' edges does a lot of damage. I saw that damage in the roast my friend shot. About a 1 1/2" shredded hole. I've also seen what a high powered rifle bullet does to deer and other game. Most of the damage there is velocity. And yes when jackets separate, little copper razors continue on causing immense damage. So anytime you have a handgun bullet that does the damage a high power rifle can do, LE doesn't like it.
What I stated was not a myth. Black Talon was called a 'cop-killer'. Right or wrong. And it's a lot nastier than your average bullet. Again, I have personally seen the results.
BTW, I'm not saying it's right or wrong to have or make it. Just saying what I saw it do.0 -
Thanks guys for all the info on my question 0
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