AR15/M16 build...Legal???
I am thinking about having an old GM Hydra-matic demilled m16a1 magwell rewelded to a semi auto lower. Does this break any ATF/NFA rules? All internalls would be commercial semi auto parts, with an old Colt M16a1 upper with semi auto bolt carrier. Seems like it should be legal, but I'm not trying to get that kind of attention from the ATF if it's questionable. Thank you for any help in advance.[;)]
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If it is capable of housing the auto sear without modification to the reciever, it would be illegal.
Best0 -
There would be no auto sear possible as the rear 3/4 of the lower would be a commercial semi auto receiver, in which all internal parts are held and function, except for the mag release arm, which obviously extends into the magwell area. I was mainl concerned with the markings/SN? Thanks again. 0 -
Just so I understand this correctly:
You want to take an existing semi automatic AR lower and have it's magazine well removed from the receiver (by whatever means). I am right so far?
You then want to take an old DEMILed M16 magazine well, have it cut to fit and then have it installed into the semi auto receiver (by whatever means)? Am I correct?
You have a real problem here with serial numbers. The M16 magazine well is going to have it's own markings as well as the AR lower you plan to sacrifice. I've added two photos; one from a Colt semi lower and one photo of my own Colt M16A1 rifle. Your markings from GM may be slightly different, but the serial number is going to be right there.
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What is your master plan on the serial number change to the semi auto AR? Cutting out the magazine well and changing it is the same as removing the serial number and that is a felony.0 -
I had a difficult time understanding your question, but Mark did a good job of figuring it out & identifying the issues so that I think I now understand.
I believe that legally you can do what you propose, but only if you have a manufacturers license & ATF approval. Anyone legally able to own a firearm can make a new AR-lower (for personal use) from a block of aluminum or an old toaster, no problem. But, you want to re-use a registered serial-numbered lower (in this case, the mag well), & THAT requires a manufacturers license.
Of course, this begs the question of why anyone would go to all this trouble when a new AR lower costs < $100.
Neal0 -
You are mfging a new receiver for personal use.
It is semi only.
If it uses a properly demilled M16 magwell it will be legal by the BATFE's definition.
However the BATFE JBTs don't necessarily go by legal definitions.
Who is your TIG welder??
CP0 -
quote:Originally posted by cpermd
You are mfging a new receiver for personal use.
It is semi only.
If it uses a properly demilled M16 magwell it will be legal by the BATFE's definition.
However the BATFE JBTs don't necessarily go by legal definitions.
Who is your TIG welder??
CP
While I think that you are correct, I am just not seeing it the same way. In this case he is not actually manufacturing a new receiver, he is taking an existing receiver and then modify it by removing the original serial number and then basically inserting a serial number from a component of another firearm, which was (we suppose) destroyed. To me this is the same as simply slicing out the serial number on an AR lower and then adding a new one, which you simply cannot do to an existing firearm unless you hold a manufacturers FFL. To make this thing work I believe he is going to have to start with an unfinished AR receiver blank (which is not serialized), do his tricky cut and paste welding business in the white , finish up the receiver and make it a functional firearm. I have no doubts at all that this is legal, the other method seems pretty gray to me and (as Neal often says) "I don't care for prison food" [;)]0 -
I believe there are no requirements for where on a receiver a serial number has to be, and I am certain that its OK to have the serial number inscribed in more than one place (in fact, if I recall correctly, this is a legal REQUIREMENT for new guns sold in MA).
I know as a fact that there are cases where gun serial numbers have been partially or totally obliterated on guns (by design or by accident), and the BATFE has authorized re-inscribing them. In other words, I think it may be OK to "move" a serial number, and if so, that could get around this issue. IE, you inscribe a second identical serial number, THAT becomes "the" serial number, and then you may be able to erase the first one.
Also, I know "re-weld" hydramatic receivers built from scraps do exist, and are legal (though expensive and scarce). So on first principles, you "should" be able to do this legally (somehow).
In fact, here is a thread related to the topic of hydramatics:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=431819
Perhaps the best way to go about this is to start off with your piece of a Hydramatic, and have that welded into an appropriately prepped but still UNFINISHED receiver by a licensed manufacturer, who can then finish it and assign it a proper serial number. That will give you what you are after, and you'll avoid destroying ANY serial numbers along the way.
Edit, Mark, I see you reached the same conclusion as me above, and posted it while I was typing this missive.
Since your demilled hydramatic is just a scrap of metal and not a "gun", I don't think tampering with its serial number (assuming it even has one) would matter. . .so long as you do that BEFORE you build it into a gun! I also don't see why you if you effectively had it built from scratch why you couldn't assign the NEW gun the same serial number already inscribed on the hydramatic, if you so chose.
quote:
What is your master plan on the serial number change to the semi auto AR? Cutting out the magazine well and changing it is the same as removing the serial number and that is a felony.
I think this is correct if all you did was cut out that part and throw it away. But lets break it down.
I don't think just cutting an AR-15 receiver in half is a felony. Lets say the serial number is intact. The gun may or may not be legally demilled after you've cut in in half, but obviously it can't function. Once cut in two, legally speaking, which half is the "gun"? Either half separately? Both halves but only if together? Neither half? Only the half with the serial number? Does it depend on how the cut is made? Whichever "half" contains more metal mass? What if you cut it exactly lengthwise into two equal halves? I don't know the answers here. . .I'm just posing these questions as food for thought.
Now lets say you had two AR-15 receivers, a white one and a black one, and you cut the two of them in half the exact same way without damaging the serial numbers. Now lets say you welded each white half to a black half, creating two new receivers with the same serial numbers as before.
Have you done anything illegal? (I'm not asking about stupid. . .just illegal [;)]) I could be wrong about this, but I don't think you have.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
I believe there are no requirements for where on a receiver a serial number has to be, and I am certain that its OK to have the serial number inscribed in more than one place (in fact, if I recall correctly, this is a legal REQUIREMENT for new guns sold in MA).
I know as a fact that there are cases where gun serial numbers have been partially or totally obliterated on guns (by design or by accident), and the BATFE has authorized re-inscribing them. In other words, I think it may be OK to "move" a serial number, and if so, that could get around this issue. IE, you inscribe a second identical serial number, THAT becomes "the" serial number, and then you may be able to erase the first one.
Also, I know "re-weld" hydramatic receivers built from scraps do exist, and are legal (though expensive and scarce). So on first principles, you "should" be able to do this legally (somehow).
In fact, here is a thread related to the topic of hydramatics:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=431819
Perhaps the best way to go about this is to start off with your piece of a Hydramatic, and have that welded into an appropriately prepped but still UNFINISHED receiver by a licensed manufacturer, who can then finish it and assign it a proper serial number. That will give you what you are after, and you'll avoid destroying ANY serial numbers along the way.
Edit, Mark, I see you reached the same conclusion as me above, and posted it while I was typing this missive.
Since your demilled hydramatic is just a scrap of metal and not a "gun", I don't think tampering with its serial number (assuming it even has one) would matter. . .so long as you do that BEFORE you build it into a gun! I also don't see why you if you effectively had it built from scratch why you couldn't assign the NEW gun the same serial number already inscribed on the hydramatic, if you so chose.
quote:
What is your master plan on the serial number change to the semi auto AR? Cutting out the magazine well and changing it is the same as removing the serial number and that is a felony.
I think this is correct if all you did was cut out that part and throw it away. But lets break it down.
I don't think just cutting an AR-15 receiver in half is a felony. Lets say the serial number is intact. The gun may or may not be legally demilled after you've cut in in half, but obviously it can't function. Once cut in two, legally speaking, which half is the "gun"? Either half separately? Both halves but only if together? Neither half? Only the half with the serial number? Does it depend on how the cut is made? Whichever "half" contains more metal mass? What if you cut it exactly lengthwise into two equal halves? I don't know the answers here. . .I'm just posing these questions as food for thought.
Now lets say you had two AR-15 receivers, a white one and a black one, and you cut the two of them in half the exact same way without damaging the serial numbers. Now lets say you welded each white half to a black half, creating two new receivers with the same serial numbers as before.
Have you done anything illegal? (I'm not asking about stupid. . .just illegal [;)]) I could be wrong about this, but I don't think you have.
You make valid points (which of course you always do), but to me it all comes back to the original receiver and the new serial number. If you took and existing AR receiver and DEMILed it according to BATFE guidelines: Three cuts with each displacing a minimum of 1/4 inch of metal and then welded the entire mess back together with the new magazine well installed then I can see it as workable with a new serial number since one cut must go through the magazine well for a legal DEMIL.0 -
Basically it boils down to the ATF giving the blessing to do it, and having their written blessing on hand, in case someone has a question. I believe a failure to do so, and then have the ATF find out about it could lead to massive legal woes, and a lot of money being spent on legal fee's to defend your definition over the one the ATF has in mind. I don't see why there is any reason to take a chance with something like this.
Best0 -
www.nodakspud.com sells a retro AR receiver if you want the look with out welding.
That's the route I would go.0
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