Stump the band (NFA)
Let's say I have a PS90 with the factory length barrel. As I understand it, if I want it cut down to the P90 length I have to pay the $200 SBR tax. I also know if I wanted to put a suppressor on it, I would have to pay $200 for that as well.
My question is this: Can you think of any situation where you permanently affixed the suppressor on the cut down barrel, bringing the integral length back up to the legal length, and therefore paying only $200 tax instead of $400?
I had heard somewhere that an AR company was welding it's flash hiders on and counting them as part of the barrel length to prevent NFA status. Don't know if that is true, but I was wondering if you could apply that to suppressors.
If you think this is possible, do you know of any actual examples?
My question is this: Can you think of any situation where you permanently affixed the suppressor on the cut down barrel, bringing the integral length back up to the legal length, and therefore paying only $200 tax instead of $400?
I had heard somewhere that an AR company was welding it's flash hiders on and counting them as part of the barrel length to prevent NFA status. Don't know if that is true, but I was wondering if you could apply that to suppressors.
If you think this is possible, do you know of any actual examples?
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If you have a Short Barreled Rifle and a Suppressor you'll have to have to pay two $200 NFA taxes: One for the rifle and one for the Suppressor. If you permanently attach a suppressor to a SBR and the "barrel" length (the suppressor being a part of the barrel since it is permanently attached) of 16+ inches and an OAL of 26+ inches you have a suppressed rifle, which carries a single $200 Tax, and no longer have a SBR to concern yourself with. Be aware that permanent means exactly that: The suppressor welded to the barrel stub with a full fusion weld or silver soldered so that it can never be removed. Keep in mind that if you already have a SBR and chose to permanently attach a suppressor you will have to pay the $200 tax on the new suppressor and even though your new suppressed rifle is now no longer a SBR won't get your $200 tax refunded on the SBR, which means you still ended up paying $400 in NFA Taxes. This kind of project most likely needs to be done by a Class 2 Manufacturer who can start with a short barrel, attach the suppressor permanently to create a suppressed rifle and then transfer it to the buyer with a single $200 tax on the suppressor. The only way I could see an individual making this work is to go out and buy a short barreled upper (in the case of an AR-15) get your suppressor transferred in on an approved Form 4, have the can permanently attached to the upper (either by you or someone else) and then once the suppressed upper is finished you can order an AR lower and assemble it all into a complete firearm. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 45forme
Let's say I have a PS90 with the factory length barrel. As I understand it, if I want it cut down to the P90 length I have to pay the $200 SBR tax. I also know if I wanted to put a suppressor on it, I would have to pay $200 for that as well.
You can have all the PS90 barrels cut down that you want for $0 tax. Now if you wanted to use it on the gun you would have to pay the $200 tax and register the gun as an SBR. For each NFA item you build or transfer you have to pay the $200 (or $5 for AOW transfer) tax.
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My question is this: Can you think of any situation where you permanently affixed the suppressor on the cut down barrel, bringing the integral length back up to the legal length, and therefore paying only $200 tax instead of $400?
Yes happens all the time. Most common would probably be an integral silenced 10/22 or 77/22 barrel as they are sold by just about every larger suppressor maker out there. Many suppressor makers that do custom work offer integral barrels for about anything you want. SRT comes to my mind first, http://www.srtarms.com/ If your gun never becomes an SBR there is no tax to pay. Once a gun is made an SBR you can have it removed from the NFA but you dont get your $$$ back.
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I had heard somewhere that an AR company was welding it's flash hiders on and counting them as part of the barrel length to prevent NFA status. Don't know if that is true, but I was wondering if you could apply that to suppressors.
Yes, as Mark stated permanently attached things are counted as barrel length. Lots of companies have done and still do this. One way of permanently attaching that Mark did not mention was blind pinning. Permanently is the key word here. Companies have been selling the AR uppers that resemble the XM-177 for years where there is a 11.5" barrel and a permanently mounted 5.5" flash hider.
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If you think this is possible, do you know of any actual examples?
Yes,
My OA 9mm Glock lower AR. 6.5" barrel with SRT integral silencer blind pinned.
I have another silencer coming for my GSG-5SD to make it a real "SD" that will be permanently attached.
Here is an example (not mine) that Gemtech makes. It comes in a 1 stamp, attached silencer, or 2 stamp SBR+silencer versions.
I am not doing this to save $$$ on NFA fees, SBR/SBS is not legal in my state.
If you look online you will come up with all kinds of examples. Pretty much anything listed as an "integral" will meet the 16" OAL. If you are planning on doing this many integrals or custom builds will have an end cap on the muzzle end that comes off so you can service your silencer.0 -
Nice looking equipment... 0 -
Two examples:
This is a Short Barreled Rifle
[img][/img]
This is a rifle with a short barrel which has a flash hider permanently affixed in order to bring it above the minimum length and put it outside the preview of the NFA.
[img][/img]0 -
The Band wins again. Thank you gentlemen, especially Nwcid for the detailed answer. TROS is an Oregon company that does suppressor / barrel work on PS90's and they originally told me I would have to pay the $400. Armed with this info, I will see if I can get them to come up with a $200 solution.
-Tim0 -
TROS is a good company to deal with.
I know http://www.tornado-technologies.com/ does some work on them too. I was in his shop getting some of my stuff threaded a couple of years ago and I know he has some PS90's there that he was working on.0 -
One problem with pinning on silencers is that you somewhat reduce the modularity of the system.
Once permanently affixed to your barrel, you can't transfer the silencer to another gun, or at least not without removing the entire barrel and transferring that.0 -
It was my understanding that, "permanently" affixed or not, if the weapon was functional without the suppressor, it was an SBR.
Many "integrally" suppressed items like 10/22 barrel/suppressor combos are welded shut, and are one, mostly non-maintainable unit. In that case the suppressor/barrel is one stamp, it's all welded together and the gun won't work with it taken out.
The sticky as I see it is that the PS90 (POS gun anyway) requires the barrel to be inserted from the REAR of the frame/receiver. This is the only way one will ever get a silencer onto the end of the thing. The wrench flats to turn the bbl into the flash hider are at the BREECH.
At the point you have inserted the barrel into the frame, it's an SBR.
Don't roll the dice with your freedom or your firearms. How do YOU think an ATF agent will interpret it, if they want to get you on "something/anything"?
Further, how will you possibly maintain the can? Especially in a POS 90, wherein the can must be removed to facilitate removal of the barrel. Cans need regular and diligent cleaning to keep them at their quietest and allow you to get the most life out of it.
I'm told the average defense, even if you WIN in Fedrule Kangaroo Kort is 40-60K. 200 bucks seems a lot cheaper to me.0 -
quote:Originally posted by DRP-AZ
It was my understanding that, "permanently" affixed or not, if the weapon was functional without the suppressor, it was an SBR.
Not sure what you mean here. Either there is something (it does not have to be a suppressor) that is permanently attached to the barrel to give it a 16" OAL or there is not. Pretty clear about what = length and if the firearm can function is not what determines length.
Then you say without the silencer, that would assume that it was removable which means it was not permanently attached, this is why I am confused.
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Many "integrally" suppressed items like 10/22 barrel/suppressor combos are welded shut, and are one, mostly non-maintainable unit. In that case the suppressor/barrel is one stamp, it's all welded together and the gun won't work with it taken out.
Maybe way back when. Most low pressure integrals (.22, 9mm, .45, ect) in the last, at least 5 years, have end caps (muzzle end) that can be unscrewed so the internals can be cleaned. Most of these are not 2 pieces, in the case of .22, that are welded together, they are built as one piece. Here is just one example from, http://www.tacticalsol.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=2&idproduct=1060
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The sticky as I see it is that the PS90 (POS gun anyway) requires the barrel to be inserted from the REAR of the frame/receiver. This is the only way one will ever get a silencer onto the end of the thing. The wrench flats to turn the bbl into the flash hider are at the BREECH.
At the point you have inserted the barrel into the frame, it's an SBR.
Don't roll the dice with your freedom or your firearms. How do YOU think an ATF agent will interpret it, if they want to get you on "something/anything"?
I have no clue how the PS90 goes together or come apart so I can not speak to that. If it in fact (I have no reason to doubt you) goes together as you say then do exactly what Mark C stated in his first post; "This kind of project most likely needs to be done by a Class 2 Manufacturer who can start with a short barrel, attach the suppressor permanently to create a suppressed rifle and then transfer it to the buyer with a single $200 tax on the suppressor".
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Further, how will you possibly maintain the can? Especially in a POS 90, wherein the can must be removed to facilitate removal of the barrel. Cans need regular and diligent cleaning to keep them at their quietest and allow you to get the most life out of it.
How often do you clean your silencers and how? If you feel like you need to clean your silencer get one that is serviceable. Well I guess none of my cans work since "regular and diligent cleaning" is something they surly dont get. Can you please point me to a link that backs up this statement you make? None of the info that came from the maker of any of my silencer say this is needed.
As for the PS90 again I can not comment, I dont have one or have ever shot one. I have shot the real P90 but only a couple of mags and it was not something I had to clean.
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I'm told the average defense, even if you WIN in Fedrule Kangaroo Kort is 40-60K. 200 bucks seems a lot cheaper to me.
The OP is not intending to do anything illegal which is why he is asking HOW to do it legally. So are you saying I can pay $200 and legally have an SBR?
If you really want to know more about NFA items I suggest you read this a few times, http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/0 -
Still stinging from that FFL thing eh?
I've been an SOT for 10 years, Sir.0
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