Is is safe to shoot 45 ACP out of a Judge using...
Moon Clips? I have some 45 ACP moon clips in the shop and they fit perfectly into the Judge. Is it safe to shoot the ACP in the LC cylinder???
One more question...I've seen 45 ACP revolvers. What do they headspace off of???...the rim of the case???
One more question...I've seen 45 ACP revolvers. What do they headspace off of???...the rim of the case???
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The 45 ACP only revolvers head space off the case mouth. The S&W 625 Mountain use moon clips on the ACP and Long Colt set on the cylinder. Ruger uses two different cylinders. It would seem that if the clip and rim fit between the cylinder and frame they should work but seem and what the manufacture says could be quite different. I just looked at a new 625 45 ACP only it uses moon clips and head space on the case mouth, I want one!! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Moon Clips? I have some 45 ACP moon clips in the shop and they fit perfectly into the Judge. Is it safe to shoot the ACP in the LC cylinder???
One more question...I've seen 45 ACP revolvers. What do they headspace off of???...the rim of the case???
Its a very intriguing question, since (to me at least) being able to use true .45ACP rounds would make this revolver much more attractive.
On the first thing, 45ACP is loaded to SAAMI max pressure of 21,000PSI. 45 Colt is loaded to SAAMI max pressure of only 14,000 PSI, and 3" .410 shotshells are loaded to only 13500 PSI.
So by spec, an ordinary .45ACP round is potentially running at literally 50% more pressure than a .45 Colt. I think that's enough of a pressure difference that you'd have to take the possibility of ruining your gun (and/or day) fairly seriously.
I'm sure if you asked Taurus, they'd tell you in no uncertain terms NOT to try this, and if you did you'd void your guns warranty.
In absolute terms, 21,000 PSI isn't very high for a modern revolver (eg all the magnum revolvers run much hotter), though its still a good bit higher than say .38+P.
While I'd like to think that any modern medium or larger frame all-steel gun should be able to handle sub-magnum level pressures, personally, I'd be disinclined to try it, since Taurus revolvers aren't particularly known for their durability.
Edit: This is responding to Hawk below. Off the record, yeah, actually I'd bet this would work, though I'd expect less than stellar accuracy or velocity from the 45ACP rounds. Don't forget, now we're shooting a little short stubby 45ACP out of a gigantically long .410 chamber. The bullet is jumping, what, nearly 2" to hit the forcing cone?
If you take a look at the rest of the board, there are currently 2 or so other threads up RIGHT NOW about lousy quality control in Taurus revolvers. We already know that .45LC rounds can do anything that .45ACP can, and more. Frankly, I barely trust Taurus wheelguns to fire the rounds they are supposed to be firing. . . Why push it?
If the gun were rated for .454 Casull (or .460) loads, you'd have extra "cushion" of safety here, but it isn't and you might not. The guns may, in fact be a good bit tougher than they "need" to be (as many are), but from a pure engineering standpoint, you shouldn't expect it.
If you just HAVE to try it, I'd suggest sticking solely to light target type loads.
On the second thing, I honestly don't know how they headspace, but you've basically got two choices: They either headspace on the front edge of the case mouth, or on the edge of the case rim via the moon clip.
I'd assume that in a longer cylinder you'd have to be headspacing on the rim/clip.
For example, you can safely fire .40SW auto rounds in the 10mm Smith 625 revolver, and since the .40SW cases are a good bit shorter than 10mm, you pretty much HAVE to be headspacing on the rim.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Moon Clips? I have some 45 ACP moon clips in the shop and they fit perfectly into the Judge. Is it safe to shoot the ACP in the LC cylinder???
One more question...I've seen 45 ACP revolvers. What do they headspace off of???...the rim of the case???
Its a very intriguing question, since (to me at least) being able to use true .45ACP rounds would make this revolver much more attractive.
On the first thing, 45ACP is loaded to SAAMI max pressure of 21,000PSI. 45 Colt is loaded to SAAMI max pressure of only 14,000 PSI, and 3" .410 shotshells are loaded to only 13500 PSI.
So by spec, an ordinary .45ACP round is potentially running at literally 50% more pressure than a .45 Colt. I think that's enough of a pressure difference that you'd have to take the possibility of ruining your gun (and/or day) fairly seriously.
I'm sure if you asked Taurus, they'd tell you in no uncertain terms NOT to try this, and if you did you'd void your guns warranty.
In absolute terms, 21,000 PSI isn't very high for a modern revolver (eg all the magnum revolvers run much hotter), though its still a good bit higher than say .38+P.
While I'd like to think that any modern medium or larger frame all-steel gun should be able to handle sub-magnum level pressures, personally, I'd be disinclined to try it, since Taurus revolvers aren't particularly known for their durability.
If the gun were rated for .454 Casull (or .460) loads, you'd have extra "cushion" of safety here, but it isn't and you might not. The guns may, in fact be a good bit tougher than they "need" to be (as many are), but from a pure engineering standpoint, you shouldn't expect it.
If you just HAVE to try it, I'd suggest sticking solely to light target type loads.
On the second thing, I honestly don't know how they headspace, but you've basically got two choices: They either headspace on the front edge of the case mouth, or on the edge of the case rim via the moon clip.
I'd assume that in a longer cylinder you'd have to be headspacing on the rim/clip.
For example, you can safely fire .40SW auto rounds in the 10mm Smith 625 revolver, and since the .40SW cases are a good bit shorter than 10mm, you pretty much HAVE to be headspacing on the rim.
Can you explain how the 45 ACP pressures could be higher than the 45 LC??? The Colt has more powder, generates much more velocity, and can use far heavier projectiles than the ACP.
If it's actually true, is it due to the use of faster burning powders in the ACP...or what???
Thanks!0 -
Hi Eric,
Glad to see time has been good to you.
I know the ACP's will chamber in the Judge, but I would refrain. I know they both have .452 diameter bullets, but something strikes me, and I can not for the life of me remember at this time. Most revolvers that chamber auto pistol rounds have a special ejector. I know they all headspace on the case mouth, but I do believe that the ACP case is smaller in diameter than the 45LC. That might lead to a potential for rapid expansion, and case splitting. I will research this further.
Best0 -
why not ask the manufacturer when it comes to a safety question ? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Can you explain how the 45 ACP pressures could be higher than the 45 LC??? The Colt has more powder, generates much more velocity, and can use far heavier projectiles than the ACP.
If it's actually true, is it due to the use of faster burning powders in the ACP...or what???
Thanks!
Edit: Givette's question in the other thread has led me to edit this a hair to be more clear:
First of all, its most certainly true. Just check the SAAMI specs. All of the old black powder era rounds operate at low pressures compared to all the modern auto and magnum rounds. Guns weren't as strong, and they didn't need to be because black powder doesn't generate the same kind of pressures.
Its a common misconception that case volume is related to intrinsic round power. I remember having this conversation with a fairly experienced shooter one time, who couldn't believe that the larger .38 special cartridge was less powerful than the markedly smaller 9mm luger! Check the ballistics chart, and its no contest. Ordinary 9mms rounds generally launch similar weight bullets faster than .38 special.
Ultimately, the quantity of powder isn't so important as the energy content of said powder, or more plainly the amount and speed of gas it generates. Smokeless powders are considerably more powerful than black powder, but of course they obtain that power by operating at much higher pressures. Consequently, smokeless 9mm luger is more powerful than black powder .38 special, even though its total powder load mass is lower.
Remember, 45LC was designed in the 1870s as a black powder round.
Back in the day, when you didn't have hotter powders, once you filled up the case, the only way to get more power out of a round was to make the cases bigger! When you hit the maximum detonation velocity of the powder, the only way to get more power still was to fire a larger bullet.
So that's why we have the .45LC, with its humongous case and heavy slug. That was state of the art ballistics for a handgun round in the late 19th century (and its still pretty darn good to this day).
Jumping forward to the 21st century, we're not using black powder in 45LC cases anymore. (Well. . .at least most shooters aren't. . .I suppose you still "could" do that if you wanted to). The powder type isn't really the "answer" here. Lets go the .45ACP.
Remember, that the .45 ACP was specifically designed as a military cavalry round to emulate the fabled ballistics of the 45LC, but in a smaller rimless cartridge that could work in an auto pistol.
Because pressure and volume are inversely related (by Boyle's law). I think to get similar ballistics out of a smaller cartridge, you have to operate at higher PEAK pressures.
A modern example of this same phenomenon would be the 45 GAP round, which generates similar ballistics to the 45ACP but in a smaller case. How does it do that?. . .by operating at higher pressures.
Lets do a thought experiment. Lets say we take identical powder charges and bullets, and put them into 45LC and 45ACP cases, then stick those cases into massively strong guns, where pressure was no object and fire them.
What would happen? The 45 ACP case has less volume, so with the same amount of gas generated as the 45LC round, it would necessarily develop higher pressures with the same load. Would the 45ACP then shoot faster? No. . .intuitively, we know that identical loads with identical bullets will shoot at the same speed. The reason is that there is more to bullet velocity than just max chamber pressure.
What drives the bullet velocity, isn't just the millisecond of maximum chamber pressure, its all the pressure that comes before, during, and after that point. Mathematically, that could be represented by the area under the pressure/time curve.
Looking at it this way, the two pressure curves will have identical area, but they'll look different. The .45 ACP will have a taller narrower curve, where as the 45 LC should have a wider lower curve.
In short, although important for a number of reasons, max chamber pressure isn't the sole measure of bullet velocity.
Getting back to your original statement, you have to compare apples to apples. Yes, the 45LC "can" shoot similar weight bullets at higher velocities than .45ACP, but again, there is more to it than just max pressures.
The .45 ACP is somewhat restricted in that it has to generate certain pressures to reliably cycle the gun's action. And the 45LC just has a bigger case. . .you can cram more slow-burning powder in there that can drive a bullet faster, without necessarily generating higher peak pressures.
In terms of bullet weight, yes the .45LC can take heavier bullets, but I think that's more of a function of the platform.
Revolvers can take any bullet weight or shape that meets pressure safety specs. Autos like the 1911 for which the 45ACP round is synonymous are far more restricted in terms of bullet weight and particularly bullet size/shape to ensure the gun feeds and cycles correctly.
I don't see why you couldn't load longer heavier bullets into a .45ACP REVOLVER. . .assuming you stayed inside operating pressure spec.0 -
Originally posted by ECC
Better yet...can anyone explain to me why it would NOT be safe to do???
A .45 acp has a case dia. of .473 whereas a .45 long colt has a case dia. of .480
Like using a .380 case dia.of.373 in a 9mm which has a case dia. of .380.
When you shoot the .380 in a 9mm it splits out the brass. I accidently shot one thru my 9mm. Bullet dia is the same.. just like your 45 acp to a .45 long colt.
Your call but I would not do it.0 -
What part of "Never use any ammunition except that specified by the firearm's manufaturer" do you not understand? What MIGHT work in an absolute emergency is totally different from common practice. 0 -
quote:I have some 45 ACP moon clips in the shop and they fit perfectly into the Judge. Is it safe to shoot the ACP in the LC cylinder???
I will be the Devil's Advocate here and say that if your Judge has so much excess cylinder headspace as to accept clipped .45 ACPs, it will probably not blow up to shoot them. Taurus used to make a .45 ACP on the standard length frame that the Judge is stretched from.
Further, the .451" bullet rattling down a .480" chamber will reduce pressure by more rapid expansion than normal and by simple leakage.0 -
What am I missing here,I shoot 45 colt 45 autorim and 45ACP using half moon clips in my old army 1917 colt,what would be the difference in judge.tks hedge 0
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