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AR-15 Pistol

rechten
I did a search on this topic in the forum and all the info was at least two years old. Looking for some up to date info.

I am looking to put together an AR-15 pistol. How do I go about obtaining a "pistol" lower receiver?

I know that the receiver can never have been a rifle. Many AR parts suppliers sell new AR receivers, WITHOUT stocks but with the trigger and hammer and all the internal parts. Could I buy one of those and have it shipped to my FFL, then register it as a pistol? Then, all it would need is a pistol buffer tube and the upper put on it and it is ready to shoot.

Also, I have no interest in making an SBR (short barreled rifle) and having to jump through all the legal hoops of dealing with the ATF.

When does the designation of pistol vs. rifle happen for a stockless lower? At the manufacturer or when I pick it up from my FFL and fill out the paperwork?

Also, I am a Florida resident.

Thanks in advance for you help!
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Comments

11 comments

Date Votes
  • rechten
    I know the basic rules about starting w/ a virgin lower receiver and have a ATF letter of clarification to that effect. In the past I have started w/ a bare receiver then as time & money permits, add the lower kit & then an upper. This time I have purchased some receivers that are factory assembled as complete lowers & the stock installed. Are they disqualified from becoming a pistol even they have never been fully assembled as either?

    Thanks guys for keeping old Jeff out of jail!
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  • cpermd
    Why would that be illegal?

    CP
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  • Winston Bode
    As long as both rifle and pistol are complete weapons. I would not have an AR rifle or carbine complete and just the pistol upper.

    Bode
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  • Txs
    quote:Originally posted by Winston Bode


    As long as both rifle and pistol are complete weapons. I would not have an AR rifle or carbine complete and just the pistol upper.

    Bode
    There it is.
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  • cbxjeff
    In a word - yes. As others have said, it's probably not a good idea to have you older rifle on hand and then buy a pistol upper - even if you never put it on your rifle receiver. It just doesn't look good to the ATF. What you could do is buy a virgin AR receiver (you know that's how you legally build a pistol don't you)? Then build your pistol, sell your rifle, and buy a rifle upper. It's OK to convert a pistol to a rifle but not the otherway around. I believe this is fine w/ the ATF and you can be sure my fellow members will jump allover me if I'm wrong.
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  • nmyers
    I am unaware of any law that prohibits possession of any combination of AR parts. I would appreciate it if those of you who believe otherwise would cite a reference.

    Neal
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  • cbxjeff
    Neal, I was siteing advice that I was given in regard to having a vertical grip that fits a Tec-9 (which I have). I was told that was not legal, much as having a full auto AR sear when there was no legal NFA AR in the home. I felt OK with regard to the grip because I have a NFA Mac with it also fits. Perhaps I have been given poor advice. Your thoughts?
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  • dfletcher
    quote:Originally posted by rechten
    Can you build and own an AR-15 pistol while you also possess an AR-15 rifle?

    What if the pistol is 9mm and the rifle is 5.56mm?

    The idea of jail does not appeal to me.

    Thanks for any information you give me.


    In the above example caliber is not important.

    So long as you have the handgun AR 15 lower, you're finne. If you have a shoulder stocked AR lower and a +16" upper PLUS an AR 15 lower and a -16" upper you are fine. The fact that you COULD slap the handgun upper on the rifle lower isn't the issue, the issue is that with all the parts present you can assemble a legally configured firearm, specifically an AR handgun lower attached to an AR handgun upper.

    Now if you dump the AR handgun lower and retain the AR rifle lower, AR rifle upper AND AR handgun upper you will need to know if constructive possession applies to SBRS (Short Barreled Rifle) in your state.

    But under the scenario you describe, you're fine.
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by nmyers
    I am unaware of any law that prohibits possession of any combination of AR parts. I would appreciate it if those of you who believe otherwise would cite a reference.

    Neal

    Its not a specific law, its an interpretation of policy by the BATFE.

    Would you agree that if you had a short-barrelled (pistol) type AR-15 upper assembled onto a stocked AR-15 rifle lower, that would be "a combination of AR-15 parts"? Would you agree that possession of this unregistered short-barrelled rifle could potentially get you into a heap of trouble?

    Now, if you agree with the above, do you think simply detaching the upper from the lower would make you legally safe? Of course it wouldn't. How about taking out the bolt carrier? Nope. How about removing the barrel? Don't think so. How about detail-stripping the entire gun down to every roll pin, and throwing them in a bag? Negative.

    The point is, if you have all the parts to construct an illegal weapon, with intent (which can be implied) you have "contructive possession" of the weapon, and the BATFE takes the view that its illegal, and may try to prosecute you for it.

    The idea is to prevent anyone from skirting laws against possession of illegal weapons just by disassembling (or not fully assembling) them, and although I have to disagree with a lot of what the BATFE thinks and does, this one actually makes sense.

    Yes, there actually have been criminal prosecutions based on constructive possession. . .so don't do it.

    Now, all that said, absolutely you can build and own an AR-15 pistol while you possess a rifle. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that probably most people who own AR-15 pistols also own a rifle, and I even believe I've seen an explicit determination by the BATFE that owning both is OK.

    Just make sure that:

    a. Neither gun is broken down in the presence of the other, and

    b. You have ALL the parts present to build the pistol at once, not just the upper (or ESPECIALLY the short barrel, which in this case is the "bad" part).

    For a, all you need to do is make sure the rifle is completely assembled while you are building the pistol. It might even be a better idea to keep the two guns in physically different places (or at least one under lock and key), though I don't think that is absolutely legally necessary.
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  • dfletcher
    CA law prohibits possession of an SBR, constructive possession applies: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12095.php

    So, if you have an AR upper of fewer than 16" and a shoulder stocked rifle lower AND an AR rifle upper, all separate, in CA that is considered possession of an SBR.

    I believe CT law also specifically cites constructive possession with respect to AWs and SBRs.

    BTW, under the theory of constructive possession the AR handgun upper can be stashed at someone else's home and still be considered in your possession. Constructive possession is a doctrine of control, not physical possession.
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  • shilowar
    quote:Originally posted by nmyers
    I am unaware of any law that prohibits possession of any combination of AR parts. I would appreciate it if those of you who believe otherwise would cite a reference.

    Neal


    I agree...

    By the previous rational if I own an AR-15 rifle with a quad rail and vertical handgrip, I risk being criminally charged if I happen to have a Kel-Tec PLR-16 in the same home...because I could move that vertical grip to the Kel-Tec making it an AOW...not that I have done that, but that I could do that makes it a crime?


    seems like a stretch
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