Sig P210 vs. Smith 629 DX "classic" (cont'd)
This is just an addition to that last bit about 9mm luger vs .44 magnum in terms of accuracy
quote:Posted - 04/05/2010 :
Beantownshootah
Well, to be Devil's advocate here, the most accurate production gun in the world is a 9mm luger SIG P210, which won't leave the factory unless it groups under 5cm at 50 meters (that's roughly 2 inches at 50 yards.
quote: laytonj1 New Member 93 Posts
S&W's 629 Classic DX (44 Magnum) was guaranteed to shoot less than 1.5" at 50 yards and came with a factory test target to prove it.
-Jim
Your point is excellent, though unless I am mistaken, the figures you cite aren't correct.
I believe the Smith 629 DX Classic came with a numbered 25 yard test target guaranteed to be under 1 inch.
While its a little hard to do the head-to-head comparison, since most handguns will shoot slightly LESS than half the group sizes at 25 yards compared to 50; 1" at 25 yards is nearly identical to 5cm at 50 meters in terms of angular dispersion.
Either one would be considered match-grade accuracy performance and adequate for top-level competition, I think. I also don't doubt that individual examples of EITHER gun are actually capable of shooting even better than that with the right ammo under ideal conditions.
To be absolutely clear, I probably should have said the most accurate production service auto in the world is the Sig P210. Even the above is a bit deceiving, because like the old Colt-Python, the Sig parts are all hand-fitted, and in by today's standards the Sig P210 is probably better considered a "custom" gun. Sig is also put out in relatively limited quantities, so its debatable how much of a "production" gun it really is.
The Smith 629 DX "Classic" carried a price tag quite a bit higher than the usual 629 magnum, but you should still be able to find one used for under $800, compared to maybe $2200 for a Sig P210.
Anyway, the point, I think is that its quite possible to achieve superb accuracy with EITHER a .44 magnum *OR* a 9mm luger, if that's what you're after.
Its probably going to be easier/cheaper to get there with the revolver. If you're just buying a stock gun off a shelf, a typical .44 revolver will *probably* be more intrinsically accurate than a usual "service" type 9mm luger like a Glock, Beretta, etc.
In some sense the comparison isn't fair, because ultimately, the 9mm luger and .44 magnum are entirely different rounds intended for different purposes. As mentioned in the last thread on this, 9mm guns aren't all that accurate in large part because they don't need to be. As a hunting and long-distance competition round, people expect more performance from .44 mags.
Invariably, match shooters in the USA use .45s, as accurizing the old 1911 pistol has been perfected into an art over many decades, and mostly because the wider .45 caliber slug is more likely to notch a scoring line in centerfire competition.
quote:Posted - 04/05/2010 :
Beantownshootah
Well, to be Devil's advocate here, the most accurate production gun in the world is a 9mm luger SIG P210, which won't leave the factory unless it groups under 5cm at 50 meters (that's roughly 2 inches at 50 yards.
quote: laytonj1 New Member 93 Posts
S&W's 629 Classic DX (44 Magnum) was guaranteed to shoot less than 1.5" at 50 yards and came with a factory test target to prove it.
-Jim
Your point is excellent, though unless I am mistaken, the figures you cite aren't correct.
I believe the Smith 629 DX Classic came with a numbered 25 yard test target guaranteed to be under 1 inch.
While its a little hard to do the head-to-head comparison, since most handguns will shoot slightly LESS than half the group sizes at 25 yards compared to 50; 1" at 25 yards is nearly identical to 5cm at 50 meters in terms of angular dispersion.
Either one would be considered match-grade accuracy performance and adequate for top-level competition, I think. I also don't doubt that individual examples of EITHER gun are actually capable of shooting even better than that with the right ammo under ideal conditions.
To be absolutely clear, I probably should have said the most accurate production service auto in the world is the Sig P210. Even the above is a bit deceiving, because like the old Colt-Python, the Sig parts are all hand-fitted, and in by today's standards the Sig P210 is probably better considered a "custom" gun. Sig is also put out in relatively limited quantities, so its debatable how much of a "production" gun it really is.
The Smith 629 DX "Classic" carried a price tag quite a bit higher than the usual 629 magnum, but you should still be able to find one used for under $800, compared to maybe $2200 for a Sig P210.
Anyway, the point, I think is that its quite possible to achieve superb accuracy with EITHER a .44 magnum *OR* a 9mm luger, if that's what you're after.
Its probably going to be easier/cheaper to get there with the revolver. If you're just buying a stock gun off a shelf, a typical .44 revolver will *probably* be more intrinsically accurate than a usual "service" type 9mm luger like a Glock, Beretta, etc.
In some sense the comparison isn't fair, because ultimately, the 9mm luger and .44 magnum are entirely different rounds intended for different purposes. As mentioned in the last thread on this, 9mm guns aren't all that accurate in large part because they don't need to be. As a hunting and long-distance competition round, people expect more performance from .44 mags.
Invariably, match shooters in the USA use .45s, as accurizing the old 1911 pistol has been perfected into an art over many decades, and mostly because the wider .45 caliber slug is more likely to notch a scoring line in centerfire competition.
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quote:I believe the Smith 629 DX Classic came with a numbered 25 yard test target guaranteed to be under 1 inch.
Well, yes and no. Per the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson
it was "under 1.5" at 50 yards".
My particular example came with a 25 yard test target with a .7" group (see pic). Some folks on the S&W forums posted theirs came with 50 yard test targets, soooo...
I will also mention that my Freedom Arms model 83 in 357 Magnum came with a 25 yard test target showing a .3" group. Though, I haven't matched it yet.
Jim
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Nice pic. . .and group!
I stand corrected, and damn you, now I want one!
For what its worth, converting to English system measurements a 5cm group at 50 meters translates into a 1.969" group at 54.7 yards.
If you extrapolate that back to 50 yards you get just under a 1.8" group at that distance, and it should translate into a sub 0.9" group at 25 yards. Not quite as good as 0.7" at that distance, but not bad, especially if you also consider that the standard Sig p210 factory test group is 8 shots.
As far as I know Sig P210 isn't currently in production, and its unclear if it ever will be again.
Pretty much everything you'd ever want to know about the gun is here:
http://larvatus.livejournal.com/33732.html0 -
While the 629, and the 29 will almost all group the same(same ammo, same barrel length, different pistol), that can't be said about most of the semi auto pistols out there. I have seen Sig 226 pistols that shoot one hole at ten yards, and 4 inch groups at a hundred yards. The next one may shoot a 12 inch group at a hundred yards. There aren't a lot of variables between the Smith revolvers, but the way a semi auto works it depends on the pistol.
I think if you shot them out of a test barrel, like quality ammo would give like quality of a group size.0 -
Lets not forget they do make 9mm, 10MM, and 45ACP revolvers too. Personally, I think Beany is in over his head on this one...especially when it comes down to comparing a $2k in its heyday auto, against a $600.00 wheelgun. If you got one out of the S&W PC it would be more comparable...as they have a model 52 auto in 9mm too.
But I still say the 44 will blow the doors off the 9mm...especially with midrange loads.
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quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
Lets not forget they do make 9mm, 10MM, and 45ACP revolvers too. Personally, I think Beany is in over his head on this one...especially when it comes down to comparing a $2k in its heyday auto, against a $600.00 wheelgun. If you got one out of the S&W PC it would be more comparable...as they have a model 52 auto in 9mm too.
But I still say the 44 will blow the doors off the 9mm...especially with midrange loads.
Best
I tell you what, I'll trade my Smith 629 DX classic for your Sig P210 and we'll call it a day. I'll even throw in a box of Buffalo Bore ammo so you can shoot a Buffalo with it. [:p] [;)][:D]
A bit more seriously, in terms of cost, Sig P210 is pretty expensive, but its not all that much more than a comparable custom match 1911 by a "name" maker, and its going to be just as accurate if not more so. EG, Les Baer isn't ashamed to charge you nearly $2000 for his plain-jane CMP-ready match hardball pistol, and he only guarantees a 3 inch 50-yard group (compared to the sub 2" group of the SIG).
http://www.lesbaer.com/prices.html#pistols
Cost of Sig P210s is also somewhat artificially elevated for two reasons: Dollar is weak right now, making all European goods more expensive, and more important *supply* of SIG P210 guns is pretty small. In absolute terms, SIG P210s were manufactured in relatively small quantity, and most of them are probably still in Europe. A few years ago, Sig even went so far as to buy up the entire Danish Military surplus supply to ensure that supply remains scarce and prices remain high!
Comparing SIG P210 to SIG 226 isn't really appropriate, in my opinion. The only thing the two guns have in common is the name "SIG", and even that's misleading, since the P210 was made and manufactured by the original (true) Swiss Sig, where as the later 226 was manufactured collaboratively in Germany by Sauer. Design, manufacture technique, tooling, etc are totally different. Smith 52 really is a better comparison in terms of what the gun is supposed to do. . .but hey. . .its no Sig! Sig P210 is a bit like a high-end Swiss watch. . .its a luxury item. [;)]
In terms of power, its not even remotely close. 9mm shines in terms of capacity. . .but that's pretty much the only thing it has going for it.
Even mid-range .44 special loads are going to be more powerful than typical 9mm loads, and even the WEAKEST .44 magnum load is going to blow the doors off the absolutely most powerful 9mm +P++ submachine gun/proof round.
With maybe one relatively common exception (EG 10mm), in general *ALL* of the conventional revolver magnum rounds are more powerful than *ALL* of the common semi-auto pistol rounds. That's one of multiple reasons why people are still using 5 and 6 shot revolvers for hunting medium or bigger game, and defense against bears, etc. Personally, I think you'd have to be nuts to take your $2500 Sig P210 hunting. . .though this author has done just that:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Sig9mm.htm
Now, in terms of accuracy, I'll say it for the THIRD time: Any decent production .44 magnum (or in fact any other centerfire revolver) off the shelf should be more intrinsically accurate than the average 9mm. I never said different. Match quality revolver should not only be as accurate as a match-semiauto (if not more so), but less expensive. (Though that doesn't necessarily make one suitable for head-to-head competition in something like a rapid fire discipline where you need 10 shots fast AND accurately).
Sig P210, is obviously a special case, and again the reason I brought it up as "Devil's advocate" in the last thread is just to counter this perception that the 9mm luger is an intrinsically inaccurate round. Empirically, there is no reason why a 9mm luger can't be as accurate as any other semi-auto pistol round, so long as the gun and ammo quality are good.
Lastly, there is a difference between how good a GUN is, and how well you can actually shoot it.
Hand a novice shooter a Sig P210. . .and you can pretty much assume they'll shoot it as well if not better than any other centerfire auto they've previously shot. The match sights, nice slim grip with good "point", relatively low recoil and light crisp-as-glass trigger just make it easy to shoot accurately (irrespective of its intrinsic accuracy).
Hand the same novice shooter a custom 4" Smith 29. . .and most of them will NOT shoot it as well as a similar 686 with .38 specials, even if the gun itself is equally or more accurate. Its because big-bore magnum rounds have tons of blast and recoil, which tends to unnerve novices.
I've actually see this firsthand. Novice shooters usually like shooting the P210 and will do well with it right off the bat. Conversely, novice shooters will shoot the *FIRST* round from the .44 magnum into the center of the target, but the next several will be all over the place (or off the paper).0 -
Beany,
I know what you mean about the custom built 1911's. I have a Wilson, and have had several other Wilsons, and am in the process of ordering a Fusion Custom. A friend of mine has several Wilson's, including a Tactical SuperGrade Commander in 9mm...talk about a beautiful thing(the way it shoots)...
That S&W Performance Center Model 52 9mm should be topshelf for accuracy too.
My idea of midrange is a middle of the road 44 Mag load with a cast lead target bullet. You know, something fun to shoot, and something that will put 6 into a neat little hole.
Another big wheel gun to not rule out is the Colt Anaconda...very accurate and strong.
But a Sig 210 would be nice....0
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