When a WWII Vet sells his 1911
Mjackso
From your other post:
quote:
Originally posted by dcinffxva
There are literally millions of guns out there marked US Property. I can't recall of CMP sold them back in the day as well, but they still sell Garands, '03's etc.
One thing I would ask the guy to do would be write a summary of his wartime service, including that he carried the pistol (by serial number) you would be getting.
I have his war record. He is 100% legit. I have zero doubt he is who he says he is, and his record is all over the internet. The problem is probably that he should have turned in the pistol upon retirement and did not. That is the only explanation for his actions I can think of. He retired in 1964 from the USAF as a Lieutenant Colonel. That was almost 50 years ago!!! He should not worry!
I was not implying any deception on you, or your friend. As was mentioned right below the original post, it goes to the provenance of the item.
There are millions of US Military firearms in the hands of private collectors. Very few have any documentation in the vets own words and hand of what they were involved with. In the long run, it will have a HUGE impact on the collectability, and value.
For example, which rifle do you think will bring more money. A near mint M-1 Garand, made in September 1945 (so still a WWII rifle) carried by a guy who just got to boot camp, or one that is well worn, with documentation, service records and photographs of a guy that planted the flag on Iwo Jima ?
I'm just saying don't let the history of this piece disappear along with millions of others.
From your other post:
quote:
Originally posted by dcinffxva
There are literally millions of guns out there marked US Property. I can't recall of CMP sold them back in the day as well, but they still sell Garands, '03's etc.
One thing I would ask the guy to do would be write a summary of his wartime service, including that he carried the pistol (by serial number) you would be getting.
I have his war record. He is 100% legit. I have zero doubt he is who he says he is, and his record is all over the internet. The problem is probably that he should have turned in the pistol upon retirement and did not. That is the only explanation for his actions I can think of. He retired in 1964 from the USAF as a Lieutenant Colonel. That was almost 50 years ago!!! He should not worry!
I was not implying any deception on you, or your friend. As was mentioned right below the original post, it goes to the provenance of the item.
There are millions of US Military firearms in the hands of private collectors. Very few have any documentation in the vets own words and hand of what they were involved with. In the long run, it will have a HUGE impact on the collectability, and value.
For example, which rifle do you think will bring more money. A near mint M-1 Garand, made in September 1945 (so still a WWII rifle) carried by a guy who just got to boot camp, or one that is well worn, with documentation, service records and photographs of a guy that planted the flag on Iwo Jima ?
I'm just saying don't let the history of this piece disappear along with millions of others.
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many WWII Vets were allowed to keep their issued 1911s, i bought one from a B-17 co-pilot back around 1978, paid $125.00 for it with one extra mag. that appeared unused, also a full box and a handful of loose rounds, all head stamped SL-43, his wife, and three Daughters did not want the gun in the house, "because of the many Grandchildren", his two Sons had no interest in it, i do not recall the exact number, but it was something around 15 or so.
i still have it and the ammo, still in the pristine condition when i got it, he said the only time he fired it was to qualify.., how many rounds would that be ?? i have fired it maybe 250 rounds.0 -
While some officers were permitted to buy their pistols at the end of WW2, NO ONE was allowed to "take" US-issued firearms. I am not saying that many weren't stolen, because many were. And, I certainly don't begrudge any WW2 veterans the guns they stole; their sacrifices were great. Then, as now, the FBI investigates the theft of US property.
As was discussed, the government has no records of serial numbers of WW2 firearms. Many were sold by DCM; in addition, US base commanders have had the authority to swap firearms for the services of local contractors for many years(!) So, the feds no longer have interest in who owns 1911's, M1's, & M1 carbines. They even permitted stolen US military machine guns to be registered during the last amnesty.
Neal0 -
I posted this little story a while ago, but I thought it'd be worth sharing again.
My uncle flew Navy PBYs during WWII. On one mission they got shot up pretty badly and were in danger of not making it home on one engine. They threw everything (well, almost everything) overboard to lighten the load and managed to return to base. My uncle kept his USGI 45 and claimed it had been dumped into the Pacific. He later returned home with it in his duffle bag. However, as a US Post Office employee, he began to have guilt pangs sometime around 1948 and, fearing Uncle Sam would come swagering into his home looking for the missing weapon, he drove over a bridge and threw it into the river. Sure wish I had that little beauty now!
Here's my point. I am a law abiding citizen, probably more than most, but I think we need to be realistic about this topic. It was a very common practice to bring home GI weapons after WWII. As I said, my uncle did and so did my father-in-law. While what they did might have been wrong, we cannot go back and correct that error. I think everyone needs to be careful about the way they approach this topic with older veterans. I fear some persective buyers might overplay this "crime" as a way of getting the vet to give up his cherished firearm for a paltry sum. On the other hand, faced with "prison time," some of these old gents might do today what my uncle did back in 1948, throw the piece in the trash. Now, wouldn't either of these outcomes constitute a real "crime?"
I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of manipulating a vet, please don't get me wrong. However, there's been a lot of hand-wringing in this forum over WWWII vet bring-backs. Personally, I think it's a tempest in a teapot. Want to face some real bureaucracy and waste a lot of time. Take a vet to the VA and let him try to return his WWII 1911 bring-back to Uncle Sam! Not only would the initial pandemonium be hillarious, I'll bet a month's pay the vet would be tied up (maybe literally) in red tape for more than a year. And then, some bureaucrat would make sure that amazing piece of history was turned into a steel ingot!
By the way, to shed some light on the post-war mindset regarding military gear, the uncle I mentioned above was on Iwo Jima a few months after the war and personally witnessed a bulldozer run over 100 brand new P-51 Mustangs, turning these shiny, sleek fighters into scrap. It was deemed more cost-effective to scrap these new planes than return them to the US. Put yourself in my uncle's shoes....or any vet's. If Uncle Sam was willing to destroy 100 brand new P-51 Mustangs, the state-of-the-art fighter of the day just to save a few bucks, who would care if a battle-worn 1911 made its way home in a duffle bag? It was certainly a different world back then...much different than today.
Just my humble opinion.0 -
I feel anything a vet brought back, they had earned.
XXXXXX0 -
I am the originator of the previous post which got locked. This new post was opened by a reader who wanted to say more on the topic. (Why posts get locked prematurely on this forum is a mystery to me.....another topic for another day...)
I bought the M1911A1 from the WWII P-38 vet for $1,000.00. He was, I think, tickled pink at that price for the pistol. When I got it, and saw what wonderful condition it and the holster are in, I sent him another $250.00, unsolicited by him. (He did not know how to send good photos to me, so I had bought the pistol somewhat in the dark relative to condition.)
This was the third firearm I bought from him. First was an unfired 1961 Sako L-579 with Nickel Supra scope - what a catch. Second was an unfired Remington 1100 shotgun dating back to 1973. I probably paid too much for both, but so what. (I could kick myself for missing his unfired 1960 Beretta O/U which he offered to me .... dammit.)
On the previous 2 firearms he wrote a letter to me to authenticate his ownership and giving history of the firearms. He was supposed to also write a letter on the M1911A1, but "got cold feet."
I am flying him and his wife from CA to TX this summer to meet him and for him and his wife to see my display of his firearms. I am adding a customized P-38 model to the gun display and other memorabilia about his service and his bio since retiring from the USAF in 1964. The model P-38 will be painted to match his plane, named "Hell's Angel" (yes, he originated the term, in 1943).
Just wanted all to know that this fine gentleman and cherished member of "The Greatest Generation" is being treated well. He deserves more than I can give him for his brave service to our country. I love him like a father. I can tell he is a man of golden character.0 -
quote:Originally posted by EVILDR235
I BELIEVE anything a vet brought back, they had earned.
XXXXXX
aaah.., fixed it fer ya, sounds better now !0
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