7.62 NATO velocity ?
I'm using 7.62 NATO in my 308 Win. Savage M99. The recoil is lighter than I expect it to be. I use them as they are and for hunting I pull the FMJ's (all copper jacket BTW) and replace them with 150 gr. soft points after resizing. I can make one little hole at 50 yds with them and they expand picture perfect in wet newsprint compared to filing the tips on the FMJ's which come apart tho I did kill a deer once with them. I haven't shot factory 308's so I have no comparison. Is the NATO round the same velocity or close to commercial 150's in 308 Win? I hate to blast up my supply of these boxer primed all copper jacketed beauties just to see how fast they go. (I'm cheap).LOL
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7.62 NATO is slightly lower pressure than 308 win, and typically the brass is thicker so there is less case volume, so they are a hair slower. Not much though... IIRC the spec is a 147grn load at 2700fps 0 -
Around 2775 FPS 0 -
As long as they work, what difference does it make. If they are good enough for some rag head, it will work on a deer. Last time I checked, none of the deer had cronographs. 0 -
Duckhead,
They are supposed to be loaded to 2750 fps. About 100 fps slower than WWII loaded 30-06. That's M80. 147 gr. FMJ. Many foreign ammunition that came to the U.S. was 'de-milled' so it may even shoot slower than that. When I chronoed both Indian and South African 7.62 NATO they ran around 2650-2700 fps.0 -
Milspec 7.62x51 NATO *may* be slower than .308 Winchester, though that will depend on the load. Lots of factory .308 Winchester actually isn't loaded any hotter than the NATO ammo.
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
As long as they work, what difference does it make. If they are good enough for some rag head, it will work on a deer. Last time I checked, none of the deer had c[h]ronographs.
I agree that its probably not going to make the slightest difference in practice if your deer-hunting ammo runs at 2600 or 2800 fps. So long as it groups fine and you can place the shots, even pretty anemic .308 ought to be plenty.
But in terms of pure military vs hunting ammo, it could make a difference.
For example, use of full metal jacket ammo for hunting is specifically prohibited in some jurisdictions. Merely filing off the tip of ball ammo may not be enough to get around that law, and it could potentially cause other problems like jacket separation during firing.
In general, the problem with FMJ ammo for hunting larger game is that it may not kill quite so quickly, particularly with a less than optimal hit. Animals like deer can have more active coagulation systems than people, meaning they may not bleed out quite so quickly. They can also run faster and cover a lot more ground if wounded. Its not ethical to just incapacitate a deer, nor is it appropriate to wound one so that it dies after hours or days.
Also, just because ball ammo is "good enough" for military use that doesn't mean its ideal. If the Hague convention and international law didn't ban its use during wartime, I think most military actually would be fielding soft-point type ammo at least some of the time.0 -
Rufe, it makes no difference, I'm just curious. Beantown, I shot 1 deer with a filed tip. I now have REAL soft points loaded. In Pa. the pamphlet states a "bullet designed to expand on impact". I think a filed tip will expand. If a deer cop wants to gimme a ticket so be it but that won't happen because I have real soft points now if I use it again. I just wanted to see if a filed tip works like I heard in the war stories I heard when I was younger.BTW, I don't intend on shooting a deer with a FMJ, that's why I do expansion tests and load development and tinker with my rifles and try to learn things by asking questions not just buying a gun and a box of shells and off to the woods I go like a lot of guys do. Not ranting just splaining. I also thought the spec. was around 2700fps which is good enough for me. They are foreign, OFV 77 is the headstamp. They come in a 10 round cardboard box in an ammo can.Good stuff. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Duck Head
Rufe, it makes no difference, I'm just curious. Beantown, I shot 1 deer with a filed tip. I now have REAL soft points loaded. In Pa. the pamphlet states a "bullet designed to expand on impact". I think a filed tip will expand.
Well, its too late to be cited for this, so its moot.
If I were a game warden or prosecutor, I'd argue (in a legal sense) that a filed FMJ bullet is NOT "designed" to expand on impact. In fact, you're tampering with a bullet specifically designed NOT to expand on impact.
I think we've all heard stories about this (as one example the practice is mentioned in the famous Joseph Heller novel "Catch 22"), but empirically, "dum-dumming" ordinary FMG bullets by cutting off the tips (or even worse, carving an "X" into them) doesn't work well. If it were that easy to make expanding bullets, nobody would every buy the "good" ones!
Its not just exposed lead that makes the bullet expand, but also the type of lead alloy, and jacket design.
With an ordinary military bullet if you expose enough lead to try and get expansion, you also can create a scenario where the bullet can literally blow through the jacket on firing. At best this leads to an inaccurate shot, and at worst, a catastrophe if the jacket lodges in your rifle barrel and you fire the NEXT shot, not realizing the barrel is obstructed.
Here is a bit on this, worth looking at:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot32.htm
Now in truth I'm not trying to get on your case about this. Any .308 (FMJ or not) is going to be plenty to kill a deer so long as you place the shot correctly.
I'm just saying that filing down FMJ bullets is a questionable practice, and if you don't have proper soft-point hunting bullets you may just be better off using FMJ bullets as they are!0 -
Duck Head,
In all the excitement of what round you have, I forgot to say "Nice Rifle!"0 -
Velocity question answered, I thought I'd throw in a little about Ball ammunition, in a whimsical fashion, if I may.
Transportation: hunting ammo will not be subjected to the field abuse of ammo being dragged up to the front line by a re-supply private, who may be in a bind trying to save his life..bad for the ammo! So, fmj (ball) is much less prone to deformity when handled extremely roughly then a can of Remington Core-Lokt's, for instance.
Getting hit: the human, after being hit with FMJ has a greater chance of survival, and that is usually costlier than an outright kill to the enemy.
Economics: Wound statistics show that the enemy soldier will have a recovery/rehab time approximating the length of the conflict, or longer. (No use to the enemy, only a drain on resources-hospitalization, etc).
Ball is sturdier. Ball is 'kinder' to the enemy. Ball is costlier to the enemy.
Yay for ball ammo!!
Best, Joe
PS..SAAMI specs for .308 is a few thousand PSI's greater than NATO specs for 7.62.0 -
Hello Beantown, Not to argue but my filing does work but as the bullet is not designed to hold it's core in the jacket they seperated like the 30-06 reversed bullets did in that link you sent. Thanks it was interesting. I stated twice I no longer use them but I'd not be afraid to use them again in an emergency or tough times like Elmer Keith.They look like a Speer Grand Slam bullet (I designed them that way) and I challenge most deer cops to tell the difference. You give them too much credit as ammo experts (there are sure to be exceptions I'll admit).One day I was relaxing at the truck after I got a buck and having lunch with my buddy and a truck with 2 deputies stopped their truck. One closest to me asked my if my gun was unloaded. He wouldn't even get out and look for himself. My rifle (M70 30-06)using Sierra 165gr HPBT was laying in the truck bed near the tailgate in an open hard case with the bolt open and pointing away from the road.Duhhhhhh, Where's your gun training? I'm 55 yrs old, I don't know everything but I can tell by looking at a rifle with a bolt open that it's unloaded from 5 ft away. The darn floorplate was open too! If he was worried he could have gotten out of the truck and checked the chamber.They even asked me to show them my orange clothes. I said I'm not hunting now, There's no law that says I have to wear it while standing around my truck! They sped off looking for another hunter to fool with. They weren't worried what kind of bullets I had. I bet they'd think Winchester Silvertips were full jackets. What would they say about my Sierra's? They might think I made a hollow point out of a military round and cut 4 cuts in the jacket mouth myself.So I'm NOT allowed to design my own bullets? They have to be factory designed? I guess I can't alter them either? LOL Just messing around, Later,Friend 0
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