Israeli Tavor semi
I asked this over on Uzi Talk, but no one knew the answer. Maybe there isn't one.
Anyone know the status of the Israeli Tavor being sold here in the U.S.? I'd really like one!
Anyone know the status of the Israeli Tavor being sold here in the U.S.? I'd really like one!
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Highly doubt it is going to happen. We had this little ban in '89 that bans importation of "non-sporting" firearms. I am not sure how many offending parts the Tavor has but IF you got one here it would not be the Tavor you see there.
This is the big reason that IMI Galil's are $3000 and not $1000. Or the IMI Uzi gets 2x the price of a Vector. If they could still legally be imported they would not be as expensive.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Farmer Brown
I asked this over on Uzi Talk, but no one knew the answer. Maybe there isn't one.
Anyone know the status of the Israeli Tavor being sold here in the U.S.? I'd really like one!
Without getting too complicated about this (see above), current rules are that guns like the Tavor can't be imported into the USA, and those rules aren't going to change anytime soon.
Consequently, there likely aren't going to be any legal American Tavors until/unless some American manufacturer reaches a deal with IMI to manufacture them in the USA.
At one point Barrett was in discussion with IMI to do just that, and the guns were shown at some American SHOT show a few years ago, but apparently that deal didn't work out. Supposedly Charles Daly (which does build/import other Israeli guns) was also in discussion with IMI to do this, but I have no idea what the status of that discussion is.
The way the economy looks right now, this isn't really a good time for new design expensive semi-automatic guns. Cash is tight, and most people who wanted a semi-auto gun have already bought theirs in the Obama panic this past year.
Another *theoretical* route for Tavor guns to be available in the USA is for some American company to buy up parts kits on the military surplus market, then assemble them on American made receivers and other parts to create functional guns.
For example, you may be familiar with Century Arms, which bought up junky Guatemalan surplus Galil parts, reassembling them on American made receivers into Galil clones of questionable quality.
The problem with this approach is that the gun is so new that there aren't any parts/guns on the surplus market yet. Maybe this will change in 10-15 years. . .we'll see.
In short, don't hold your breath for a legal American Tavor gun anytime soon.
If you want to "have" one, a potentially easy route is for you to enlist in the Israeli Defense Forces. [;)]
Alternatively, I'd imagine IMI would be happy to sell you a few crates of them, so long as you took possession in a jurisdiction where that sale would be permitted.
Lastly, because of different importation rules, I believe semi-auto Tavors actually ARE legal in Canada! So if you happen to live close to the border, you can probably jump across and TRY one. You won't, however, be able to BUY one, or bring one across the US border legally.0 -
I handled them when Barrett was contemplating importing them.
And ass-heavy pig of a rifle. I didn't like it at all.0 -
been a gunbroker member for a while and totally forgot there was a forum. wow. okay i was just surfing the net and happened to notice you guys have no idea kbi or kassnar was going to import a civilian legal atf approved semi auto tavor as it states on another forum i was on while trying to gain info on this topic. apparently the importer went out of biz when the project was a go so maybe someone will pick up the ball or has already. 0 -
There's no point.
The MSAR and the AUGs now made in the USA are better, lighter and more reliable rifles. Plus, they can be had with real flash hiders and bayo lugs. UNLIKE any import.
Set up a plant, build them here. Why not. The only major "exotic" who didn't get that through their head were the snooty Germans, at whom folks have been howling for years to build US made HKs of the 9x series.
Instead we have to make due with clone builds (I do some beautiful ones, If I do say so myself) and some ugly Turk made ones, which are obscenely expensive for what they are. HK parts in general are stupid expensive for what they are.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Commbloc
been a gunbroker member for a while and totally forgot there was a forum. wow. okay i was just surfing the net and happened to notice you guys have no idea kbi or kassnar was going to import a civilian legal atf approved semi auto tavor as it states on another forum i was on while trying to gain info on this topic. apparently the importer went out of biz when the project was a go so maybe someone will pick up the ball or has already.
Look again. . .from my post 12 months ago:
quote:Beantownshootah Posted - 02/11/2010 : 6:48:10 PM
Supposedly Charles Daly (which does build/import other Israeli guns) was also in discussion with IMI to do this, but I have no idea what the status of that discussion is.
Since Charles Daly (aka Kassnar/KBI) is now defunct, I don't see how this is going to happen.
On the actual gun, for what its worth, while they DO have flash hiders, I don't think any of the various iterations of the actual Israeli military issue Tavors have bayonet lugs. I presume the Israelis just don't think putting a bayonet on a short carbine is all that useful.
If the gun were built on American made receivers, presumably it would have the ability to take a standard flash-hider.
In terms of AUG (or other bullpup designs) vs Tavor, that's a whole other discussion, but one potential advantage to the Tavor is that in its standard configuration its a little shorter and lighter. In Israel there are plenty of women on active duty, and a lighter more portable gun is an advantage.0 -
Did I just read that charles daly is out of business/defunct? Really? That is news to me! Does anyone have more/better details on them? Thanks. 0 -
What? The Tavor has steel internals, and the MSAR/AUG has plastic ones. Situated behind the pistol grip, bullpups with steel internals are always ass-heavy and poorly balanced.
See also: SA80/L85A1. Blech.
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by Commbloc
been a gunbroker member for a while and totally forgot there was a forum. wow. okay i was just surfing the net and happened to notice you guys have no idea kbi or kassnar was going to import a civilian legal atf approved semi auto tavor as it states on another forum i was on while trying to gain info on this topic. apparently the importer went out of biz when the project was a go so maybe someone will pick up the ball or has already.
Look again. . .from my post 12 months ago:
quote:Beantownshootah Posted - 02/11/2010 : 6:48:10 PM
Supposedly Charles Daly (which does build/import other Israeli guns) was also in discussion with IMI to do this, but I have no idea what the status of that discussion is.
Since Charles Daly (aka Kassnar/KBI) is now defunct, I don't see how this is going to happen.
On the actual gun, for what its worth, while they DO have flash hiders, I don't think any of the various iterations of the actual Israeli military issue Tavors have bayonet lugs. I presume the Israelis just don't think putting a bayonet on a short carbine is all that useful.
If the gun were built on American made receivers, presumably it would have the ability to take a standard flash-hider.
In terms of AUG (or other bullpup designs) vs Tavor, that's a whole other discussion, but one potential advantage to the Tavor is that in its standard configuration its a little shorter and lighter. In Israel there are plenty of women on active duty, and a lighter more portable gun is an advantage.0 -
Edit: For Garth, above:
quote:http://www.wonews.com/Blog.aspx?id=883
Monday, February 08, 2010
Charles Daly slams doors shut
HARRISBURG, PA - Phones were not being answered, mail boxes were full and this led to a search of the Charles Daly web site. The web site opened with a single page stating in fact that rumors of the demise of Charles Daly were true and that KBI was going out of business, closing its doors and that the last day of business was Jan. 29, 2010.
Also, clarifying what I posted above, technically the rifles would require an American made receiver and the requisite number of American made parts before you could legally add a flash hider.
Supposedly the Canadian-legal civilian Tavors are running about $3000 each. That's a lot of scratch for one. . .the USA made AUG clones are running about $2k, and they don't look half bad. Presumably if the Tavor rifles were ever were made in the USA they'd be priced a bit more competitively, but since nobody seems to have any plans to do so right now, I think this is moot.
quote:Originally posted by DRP-AZ
What? The Tavor has steel internals, and the MSAR/AUG has plastic ones. Situated behind the pistol grip, bullpups with steel internals are always ass-heavy and poorly balanced.
See also: SA80/L85A1. Blech.
Here's the published specs (and I'm trying to pick apples/apples comparisons here):
Steyr AUG: 790 mm, 3.60 kg (20" bbl standard version)
690 mm, 3.30 kg (16" bbl carbine version)
Tavor TAR-21: 720 mm, 3.27 kg (18" bbl standard carbine).
TC-21: 670 mm, 3.19 kg (16.1" civilian legal carbine).
The Tavor may be using more steel than the AUG, but for the same barrel length, the Tavor is about an inch shorter in overall length, and a whopping 4 ounces lighter.
I don't doubt that the Tavor is more butt-heavy, but this guy seems to think the balance is OK:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsaMIP8huPs
I can say that the Israelis have been using Tavor guns in actual combat for roughly ten years, including in quite a bit of fighting in Gaza. They're standard issue now to the Israeli Golani and the Givati brigades, which serve as Israels "marines", so to speak.
The Israelis seem to like them, and the Israeli military is currently expanding use of these rifles amongst combat troops. . .something they wouldn't do if the guns were unreliable or otherwise problematic.0 -
It's not overall weight, it's balance.
I guess one could hang an optic out past the CG and compensate for it.0
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