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out of state transfer on Fed Form 4???

tsavo303
Hey guys,
just making sure I am not missing something... I have a out of state buyer who wants to use a "Federal Form 4 stamp" instead of an FFL. I have no knoweldge of how this would work and am skeptical of legality.
I am not going to do it unless proof can be shown that this is OK
Thanks
T
"would you be willing to ship directly to me
instead of going through a FFL dealer...i would be more than happy to
supply you with my Carry Permit number and/or my Federal Form 4 stamp"
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Comments

9 comments

Date Votes
  • iwannausername
    As with non-NFA items, interstate stuff requires a FFL. And it must be a SOT/Class 3/NFA stuff FFL.

    Hopefully NWICD will be along shortly to give all the gory details.
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  • cpermd
    Definitely nothing legal about it,

    CP
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  • tsavo303
    Thanks, I thought so. It is a regular AR, has nothing to do with the crap he was talking about
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  • vicg1
    yup, if it's not NFA, a form 4 has nothing to do with anything... if it were NFA, an out of state sale would have to go to a dealer...
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  • givette
    quote:Originally posted by vicg1
    yup, if it's not NFA, a form 4 has nothing to do with anything... if it were NFA, an out of state sale would have to go to a dealer...

    Tsavo: since you seem good to go with the answers provided, may I throw a somewhat unrelated item in? (If you still need more input, I'll delete my post). Here's my question:

    C&R NFA items can go directly to the C&R's address. But that begs the question..private sale!

    What happens with the form 4, after the buyer receives the completed, tax-paid stamp? Just simply send the original to the seller? Or just a copy? What does the seller do at his end prior to shipping to an 03 FFL?

    Can anyone clear this up? Thanks, Joe
    EDIT
    Nwcid: Just read your reply to my question below. Let's say a C&R want's my C&R Thompson. I don't have an FFL. I give him the SerNo, and other information needed to complete a form 4. He jumps through the NFA hoops, gets approved. My question:

    After payment received, do I simply send the gun to him? After all, he's the holder of a Federal license that enables him to receive directly to his premises. What would you do in this case? Thanks, Joe
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  • Nwcid
    None of those things listed have anything to do with anything.

    An approved Form 4 is good ONLY proof that the transfer tax has been paid for that 1 item, nothing more or less. The Form 4 is technically a tax document. Based on the guys statements I assume he is wanting you to send a gun directly to him. If that is the case guns ONLY go to FFL's.

    Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
    A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

    From right here, http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

    Tell him if he can prove shipping it to him is legal that you will do it. I would like to see what he says.
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  • Nwcid
    quote:Originally posted by givette


    What happens with the form 4, after the buyer receives the completed, tax-paid stamp? Just simply send the original to the seller? Or just a copy? What does the seller do at his end prior to shipping to an 03 FFL?

    Can anyone clear this up? Thanks, Joe


    Not sure what direction you are going here. NFA transfers SOT to SOT (Dealers/makers) on Form 3's. NFA transfers to private end users on Form 4's.

    If you are selling a used NFA item that is on a Form 4 IN state the buyer fills out a new Form 4 and pay $200 transfer, once approved the item it transfered to the new owner. If it is being transfered OUT of state then it needs to go to a SOT on the buyers end (assuming it is not a C&R item) which is a $200 transfer (F4 to F3) then the new buyer will fill out a Form 4 and pay his $200 transfer, once approved the item is transfered to the new owner.

    The pervious Form 4 is no longer valid. The owner of the Form 4, which just shows the tax was paid, again this IS a tax form, can do what he wants with it. There is actually a market for NFA stamps in the "stamp collectors" world. I hear the usually go for $50. Funny thing is the $5 AOW stamp is worth more since there seems to be less of them. I would keep a good copy of the Form 4 (who knows) and if you were to sell the stamp or Form 4 destroy the personal info.

    As for C&R NFA items you still have to fill out a Form 4 as an end user and wait for it to be approved. The only difference is that you dont have to go through a SOT and wait a few extra weeks or pay the extra $200 + SOT fee.

    EDIT:

    quote:Originally posted by givette

    EDIT
    Nwcid: Just read your reply to my question below. Let's say a C&R want's my C&R Thompson. I don't have an FFL. I give him the SerNo, and other information needed to complete a form 4. He jumps through the NFA hoops, gets approved. My question:

    After payment received, do I simply send the gun to him? After all, he's the holder of a Federal license that enables him to receive directly to his premises. What would you do in this case? Thanks, Joe


    What you would do is send him a copy of your Form 4 (has all the info he needs to fill out his). Since he IS an FFL holder (in this case an 03 with and the gun is an 03) you send it directly to him.

    This is no different then any other C&R gun other then it has to be approved by the ATF (Form 4) first. Any NFA transfer, even between SOT's (Form 3) require ATF approval prior to transfer of the item.

    I have not done this but I am sure if I am wrong Mark C will post since I am pretty sure he has.
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  • mark christian
    What will happen is that after the BATFE approved the Form 3 (SOT/SOT tax free transfer) or Form 4 ($5 or $200 transfer) they will notify the seller that the firearm once registered to him on a Form 3 or Form 4 has now had it's registration transferred to the buyer. Once this happens the seller ships the firearm, either to an SOT (a so called Class 3 dealer) of the buyers choosing or, in the case of a C&R firearm, directly to the buyer. NFA items are always registered to the buyer on an approved Form 3 or Form 4 before the physical transfer takes place.

    Oh yes, the usual GB disclaimer: I already know all about the tax free transfer on Form 5 so anyone who wants to tell all of us about how I missed it can just save some typing!
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  • givette
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    What will happen is that after the BATFE approved the Form 3 (SOT/SOT tax free transfer) or Form 4 ($5 or $200 transfer) they will notify the seller that the firearm once registered to him on a Form 3 or Form 4 has now had it's registration transferred to the buyer. Once this happens the seller ships the firearm, either to an SOT (a so called Class 3 dealer) of the buyers choosing or, in the case of a C&R firearm, directly to the buyer. NFA items are always registered to the buyer on an approved Form 3 or Form 4 before the physical transfer takes place.

    Oh yes, the usual GB disclaimer: I already know all about the tax free transfer on Form 5 so anyone who wants to tell all of us about how I missed it can just save some typing!


    Bingo!! (Item in blue above!) That's what I was struggling to determine! Seller needs to receive something official in writing prior to shipping out his NFA firearm!

    Thanks all for taking the time with me, and sorry I wasn't able to post in a more concise manner. Best, Joe
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