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1885 Winchester unknown chamber?

KySilverado
Hey All, I've been working on putting the rifle together I asked about in this thread.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=427645

Long story short, It's not chambered in 25/20 Single Shot as the barrel is marked (25WCF). I bought some loaded rounds from Buffalo Arms. They will drop in the chamber, somewhat loose, but on the other end they drop clear down to the shoulder of the case so the bore is larger than .25 cal. With some calipers I can measure as much as .296 on the business end. At the chamber the 25/20 case looks head spaced about right but the rim may be just a bit small. With a bore light the chamber looks to be a straight wall maybe .75 to 1" long.

Looking for somewhere to start to figure what the hell this thing is chambered in. I know the rifle hasn't been touched in about 40 years. What would be a typical cartridge to re-chamber a 25/20 in? I relooked the barrel over and opposite the 25wcf marking on top at the flat under the forearm and main spring there is a 3 a punch mark and WCF and a 4 stamped on it. That mean anything?

Whats the material that you can cast a chamber with?

Thanks in advance for any insights guys.
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Comments

11 comments

Date Votes
  • tsr1965
    The 25-20 WCF is the 32-20 WCF necked down. The 32-20 if I am not mistaken takes a 0.308 diameter bullet. Often when the bore got bad the rifle was rebored to the next available size. Since both the 25-20, and 32-20 headspace on the rim, it would percieve that the round headspaced right, and it would even fire, if the chamber was a 32-20.

    The bore dimension at the muzzle would be about right for the 32-20. The only way to know for sure is a chamber casting. The material to do that with is Cerrosafe.

    Best
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  • KySilverado
    Just ordered some cerrosafe. Thanks for the info. 32/20 makes sense, guess a chamber cast is the only way to know for sure.
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  • KySilverado
    Well no chamber cast yet. Went an visited my uncle and did some investigation. Drove a couple lead 32 cal bullets down into the muzzle and the bore is about .302-.303. 32/20 wcf, 32 S&W long, 30 carbine will not chamber. Whatever it is chambered in dang near the 25/20 Single Shot cartridge with a .30 cal bullet. Looking through Cartridges of the World closest I can come to that looks like a 30-30 Wessen. Doubtful. I'm beginning to believe someone just bored the thing and didn't chamber it?

    Still going to cast the chamber but I'm betting its just a wall hanger unless I have the barrel worked. Is it possible to re-line the barrel and chamber it back to a 25/20 single shot?
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  • tsr1965
    quote:Originally posted by KySilverado
    Well no chamber cast yet. Went an visited my uncle and did some investigation. Drove a couple lead 32 cal bullets down into the muzzle and the bore is about .302-.303. 32/20 wcf, 32 S&W long, 30 carbine will not chamber. Whatever it is chambered in dang near the 25/20 Single Shot cartridge with a .30 cal bullet. Looking through Cartridges of the World closest I can come to that looks like a 30-30 Wessen. Doubtful. I'm beginning to believe someone just bored the thing and didn't chamber it?

    Still going to cast the chamber but I'm betting its just a wall hanger unless I have the barrel worked. Is it possible to re-line the barrel and chamber it back to a 25/20 single shot?



    Yes it is possible to do, but be aware that the 25/20 single shot, and the 25 W.C.F.(25-20 Winchester are two different rounds. I would opt for the W.C.F. if i were to do the reline. I would cast
    the chamber first, and see if you had the meat to chamber to 32-20. How does the rifling look? Does it look pristine, like a decent job of rebore? that would be a deciding factor too.

    Best
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  • Bert H.
    Hmmm... tough luck so far on that old rifle.

    Does it have an extractor, and if so, is it marked? That may give you a clue as to what the previous owner's intentions were for the caliber/cartridge. I am not aware of any .30 caliber rimmed cartridge that would be safe to shoot in a Model 1885 low-wall.

    As for relining it, since you already have some 25-20 S.S. cartridges, that is what I would recommend relining it to. The 25-20 S.S. is a superior cartridge to the 25-20 W.C.F. (the primary reason that Winchester made nearly 8,000 of them in that chambering versus the 450 or so in 25-20 W.C.F.).
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  • KySilverado
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    Yes it is possible to do, but be aware that the 25/20 single shot, and the 25 W.C.F.(25-20 Winchester are two different rounds. I would opt for the W.C.F. if i were to do the reline. I would cast
    the chamber first, and see if you had the meat to chamber to 32-20. How does the rifling look? Does it look pristine, like a decent job of rebore? that would be a deciding factor too.

    Best


    Longs story and primarily the reason I decided to save the old lady is when I cleaned her up was the excellent bore. Now I understand why. Just didn't register that it was a .30 cal. bore.[:(]

    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    Hmmm... tough luck so far on that old rifle.

    Does it have an extractor, and if so, is it marked? That may give you a clue as to what the previous owner's intentions were for the caliber/cartridge. I am not aware of any .30 caliber rimmed cartridge that would be safe to shoot in a Model 1885 low-wall.

    As for relining it, since you already have some 25-20 S.S. cartridges, that is what I would recommend relining it to. The 25-20 S.S. is a superior cartridge to the 25-20 W.C.F. (the primary reason that Winchester made nearly 8,000 of them in that chambering versus the 450 or so in 25-20 W.C.F.).

    Yeah bad luck with it so far. For whatever reason I've grown rather fond of this old thing.

    Yes it has an extractor. If it's marked I can't see what. A 25/20 Single Shot will chamber and will extract. Unfired obviously.

    I'm with you. If I have to and decide to the 25/20 Single is what I want it to be.


    Maybe I should repharase my question... I know I could reline the barrel back to 25 caliber. The question is the chamber. I'm confident the chamber presently in the gun is now to large for a 25/20 cartridge. It would have to be inserted also. I've never heard of that being done. Can it be done?
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  • 264fan
    Why not have it rechambered for 30 30? Low wall will handle the pressure unless you load real hot, I built mine many years ago with a surplus 30 cal machine gun barrel and used cast bullets.
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  • tsr1965
    quote:Maybe I should repharase my question... I know I could reline the barrel back to 25 caliber. The question is the chamber. I'm confident the chamber presently in the gun is now to large for a 25/20 cartridge. It would have to be inserted also. I've never heard of that being done. Can it be done?

    Yes, it can be done, if you have enough meat on the original barrel. How it is done, is to take a 25 cal barrel BLANK, not liner, and turn the major ID down to where you would need it to chamber the cartridge too. Then bore your old barrel for the insert you turned down. Hence, you have the barrel and chamber in one piece. It can be epoxied in with J-B Weld, or Brownells Steel Bed. You should try to make the OD of the blank near standard size for a boring drill, that you could use to reem the original barrel. Personally, since any collector value is gone, I would opt to make it a really good economical shooter. I would try using a 32WCF reemer, after you chamber cast it, and determine if it has enough meat in the chamber to do so.

    Best
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  • KySilverado
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    Yes, it can be done, if you have enough meat on the original barrel. How it is done, is to take a 25 cal barrel BLANK, not liner, and turn the major ID down to where you would need it to chamber the cartridge too. Then bore your old barrel for the insert you turned down. Hence, you have the barrel and chamber in one piece. It can be epoxied in with J-B Weld, or Brownells Steel Bed. You should try to make the OD of the blank near standard size for a boring drill, that you could use to reem the original barrel. Personally, since any collector value is gone, I would opt to make it a really good economical shooter. I would try using a 32WCF reemer, after you chamber cast it, and determine if it has enough meat in the chamber to do so.

    Best


    Thanks so much for the input and pardon my ignorance. Although I've been shooting and reloading for years, its been modern stuff and I've never had to think about the mechanics to it.

    I agree completely with the 32/20 being an excellent/lower cost alternative. Pretty confident that there is enough "meat" to re-chamber to this. My concern then is with the bore. Based purely on my best caliper readings of a lead bullet being forced into the muzzle, just the length of the bullet, it may be to small for the 32/20? Basing this entirely on some blank info I found here. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID=483. The bullet is measuring, highest .303 lowest .292. From the link I posted 32/20 ideally? would be .305/312.

    Maybe I'm overly concerned considering how easy it is drive out the .315 lead bullet I'm using, however it does shave off quite a bit of lead going in.
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by 264fan
    Why not have it rechambered for 30 30? Low wall will handle the pressure unless you load real hot, I built mine many years ago with a surplus 30 cal machine gun barrel and used cast bullets.


    An original Model 1885 low-wall is nowhere near strong enough for the 30-30 cartridge!
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by KySilverado
    quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
    Yes, it can be done, if you have enough meat on the original barrel. How it is done, is to take a 25 cal barrel BLANK, not liner, and turn the major ID down to where you would need it to chamber the cartridge too. Then bore your old barrel for the insert you turned down. Hence, you have the barrel and chamber in one piece. It can be epoxied in with J-B Weld, or Brownells Steel Bed. You should try to make the OD of the blank near standard size for a boring drill, that you could use to reem the original barrel. Personally, since any collector value is gone, I would opt to make it a really good economical shooter. I would try using a 32WCF reemer, after you chamber cast it, and determine if it has enough meat in the chamber to do so.

    Best


    Thanks so much for the input and pardon my ignorance. Although I've been shooting and reloading for years, its been modern stuff and I've never had to think about the mechanics to it.

    I agree completely with the 32/20 being an excellent/lower cost alternative. Pretty confident that there is enough "meat" to re-chamber to this. My concern then is with the bore. Based purely on my best caliper readings of a lead bullet being forced into the muzzle, just the length of the bullet, it may be to small for the 32/20? Basing this entirely on some blank info I found here. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID=483. The bullet is measuring, highest .303 lowest .292. From the link I posted 32/20 ideally? would be .305/312.

    Maybe I'm overly concerned considering how easy it is drive out the .315 lead bullet I'm using, however it does shave off quite a bit of lead going in.


    I do not believe that the current bore diameter is large enough for a standard 32/20 bullet.

    You will need to send or take the barrel and action to someone who does relining work to determine what can be done.

    In order to see what is marked on the extractor, you will need to remove it from the action.
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